I haven't played frontier, so maybe I missed something. But there was a protectron sex robot in new vegas. You could have sex with a protectron named fisto. Why hasn't that incurred rage? I mean, I have no idea how that would even work anatomically ( the sex makes drilling sounds), and, man, I don't want to know. But fallout is weird and ridiculous so I shrugged and moved on.
Are sexual lizard mutants worse than protectron-human sex?
Maybe I'd have to play frontier to find out, but like I said, I don't want to know.

I just decided not to play it as well. I've heard the newest update supposedly removed whatever that lizard thing was as well as some other things, but it just doesn't seem worth the hassle to get the mod working when the mod is so action focused in a game where the shooting itself isn't really satisfying. I have other things to waste my time on

@Sirdanest Well, my answer to that would be this. A sexbot is ultimately just a bigger, more complex sextoy. It's not in the same category as pedophilia or bestiality. You know what I'm saying? Those are just 2 different things.

Also, the fact that it's a one time thing, the robot's name, the drilling sounds... It's very obvious that it's a silly joke. With the Frontier, however, despite its developers' claims, when you look at all fetishes present and the aggressively horny dialogue, it is very clear they were not trying to be funny.

But that's not even the main issue, it goes so much deeper than that. Seriously, look into it. You talk about Fallout being allowed to be weird and ridiculous? The Frontier isn't Fallout in any way, shape or form. It's been confirmed now that the lead devs had either never played NV or they hated it.

Show me where the pedophilia in the mod is? Also show me where it's confirmed that "the lead devs had either never played NV or they hated it."

I get it, you don't like the mod. But making shit up to try and sway people away from the mod isn't helping your case, it just makes you sound delusional and bitter.

EDIT: In fact, let's go over your whole list here.

- Degeneracy (What does this even mean in this context?)
- Bugs (Right, because Fallout is known for its stability and lack of bugs)
- Pedophiles (One furry artist on the team, who was immediately removed, along with all his work)
- Letters from Preston Garvey (Literally a small, single part of the entire mod contained to one room)
- Poorly written erotica EVEYWHERE (There is literally no erotica anywhere in the mod, the closest would be the lizards. Who at the moment aren't even accessible)
- A terrible and preachy story(The NCR side, sure. But even the devs of the mod don't like the NCR side)
- More degeneracy (Running out of points already?)
- Every single action scene plagiarized from a different franchise (Falls under the NCR side, which despite it being bad is only 1 out of the THREE full main questlines in the mod)
- Lizard people (and? You say that like lizard people are even remotely the weirdest mutants in Fallout)
- Sex with Deathclaws (Removed from the mod entirely. But even then not entirely out of character for Fallout)
- Aggressively horny dialogue (Not really. Even before the changes I can think of maybe 2-3 instances of horny dialog at most)
- White Knights(Again, what do you even mean with this?)
- So much lore breaking *is like these people hate the franchise they're modding(For the NCR line, again. Sure. I'll give it to you, the NCR line isn't great. But the rest are completely fine)
- Even more degeneracy. Did I mention degeneracy?(Man you're really running out of points to argue about huh)

Honestly dude, you fell into the youtube bait of "OMG NEW THING IS BAD". It has flaws, definitely. But it's hardly "complete garbage", but acting like a 12 year old, screaming at the mod, and basically making shit up isn't helping anything.

TastyHands wrote:

- Degeneracy (What does this even mean in this context?)

Disgusting, taboo, immoral behavior. In this context it refers to furries, bronies, pedos. Just about anything that is morally and sexually reprehensible.

TastyHands wrote:

- Pedophiles (One furry artist on the team, who was immediately removed, along with all his work)

If by immediately you mean two weeks after the release. And if by "One furry artist" you mean Zu, who had next to nothing to do with the actual pedo fantasy content within the mod. Odin wrote the America sex slave girl and he also wrote Mae Caufield's character who despite being underage, talks about having sex and doing drugs in every other line. There's literally a line where she says "Thank you kind stranger, take my virginity". Can you see the problem here?

TastyHands wrote:

- Poorly written erotica EVEYWHERE (There is literally no erotica anywhere in the mod, the closest would be the lizards. Who at the moment aren't even accessible)

You can have sex with so many NPCs in the mod. In every Fallout game, sexual encounters were a rarity and confined to a very few rare moments, of which were only possible with certain skills, checks, etc. This mod has a dialogue option for each skill and special to have sex with the Deathclaw, combined with the fact you can make America your sex slave, then the oversexualized manner of which NPCs talk in, and finally the fact that "teen sex slaves" are literally in quests. Why can't I go an hour without seeing an option to fuck?

TastyHands wrote:

- A terrible and preachy story(The NCR side, sure. But even the devs of the mod don't like the NCR side)

Even if they don't like it, it ruins the quality of the mod by merely existing. The fact that one of the writers of it literally named himself the "disciple of Kojima" only reinforces the fact.

TastyHands wrote:

- Lizard people (and? You say that like lizard people are even remotely the weirdest mutants in Fallout)

Name 1 creature weirder than Lizard people and I'll make a case for their existence.

TastyHands wrote:

- Sex with Deathclaws (Removed from the mod entirely. But even then not entirely out of character for Fallout)

Right... I can tolerate the super mutant sex in Fallout 2 because not only are super mutants humanlike in some capacity, but it's also not forced like in this mod. It's one minor (implied, not EXPLICIT) possibility of what happens if you lose an arm wrestling match in Fallout 2. It's not 3-4 dialogue options of ([Speech 20] - Let's fuck under the moonlight)

TastyHands wrote:

- Aggressively horny dialogue (Not really. Even before the changes I can think of maybe 2-3 instances of horny dialog at most)

You've not been paying attention.

TastyHands wrote:

Honestly dude, you fell into the youtube bait of "OMG NEW THING IS BAD". It has flaws, definitely. But it's hardly "complete garbage", but acting like a 12 year old, screaming at the mod, and basically making shit up isn't helping anything.

I didn't intend on defending anyone in any way, but saying that anyone who criticizes the mod is somehow only doing so because of Youtube is an extremely contrived point to make especially considering that only a few youtubers are completely trashing this mod. There's funny clips, but the fact that these clips are funny and ridiculous goes to show that even without any editing, essays or critique, the writing can't even be taken seriously.

I completely understand that there's people who jump on the bandwagon, but most of that comes from the Sneedclave over at /v/, not Youtube, although TKs Mantis and his followers might be in that bracket too.

The Frontier team isn't helping in this regard. They just keep fuelling hatred for themselves by making subreddits named "LowSodiumFrontier" and antagonizing those criticizing their mod.

@TastyHands  Oh, I'm making stuff up, am I?

1. "Degeneracy" is an all encompassing term for all the disgusting fetishes the devs decided to insert. Unless I've missed something and If I remember correct, I believe there were 10 different ones. Considering that, I felt it was appropriate to mention it 3 times, just to emphasize my point. Hope that answers your question.

2. Bethesda is known for bugs, mostly because of their rushed products. NV is know for bugs because you know, the guys at Obsidian had 18 months to make the game. After spending 7 YEARS developing a mod? No excuse for it being a buggy mess.

3. Zu didn't write any story. By his own admission, he mostly made pip boy icons, a few weapons and some proof reading, mainly for holotapes. America was written by Odinsword. The lizard sex dungeon and Mae were made by Nazo. Zu is simply a scapegoat to distract people from the fact there's at least a couple pedophiles and several deviants in the dev team.

4. Which says a lot about the devs and their writing skills as they decided to introduce the very worst part of FO4 into their mod as a joke thinking it would be funny.

5. All the sex and sexual references in the mod, including the pedophilia and bestiality... you mean to tell me you somehow missed those?

6. Just on the NCR side? Dude, the crusaders are a Mormon BOS that send a hooker to recruit you. You mean to tell me that's where I can find the good story? How about Ghoul Jesus, did you like that part too?

And by the way if even the devs don't like the NCR quest, which is the longest and most detailed because they all seem to have a huge boner for the NCR then that's a clue that it's all trash.

7. See point number 1.

8. Yes, I'm sure that the same people that couldn't write ONE original thing for the NCR quest despite it being their clear favorite faction went all in with the other questlines.  

9. Other than the fact that it is yet another plagiarized thing (if you look up "unity web store basilisk model" you get the exact monster), it's not about whether or not they are weirder than ghouls or super mutants, which is entirely subjective. It's about whether it makes goddamn sense in the franchise. Did the devs even tried to justify those lizards? They are such a poor creation they don't even use the reptilian lisp correctly. These are not fallout monsters, they don't tell a story, they don't fulfill any role in the game. They are just one more example of deviant writers filling the mod with their fantasies.

10. I don't know what kind of Fallout you are playing.

11. As Heisenberg pointed out, you're not paying attention.

12. A joke on the fact that if you insult America, the "crusaders" (knights) turn hostile. Yeah, that's totally not Odinsword's erotic fantasies inserted into the mod.  

13. Sure. Because the legion having female soldiers or dozens of howitzers or actual roman armor doesn't break the lore at all. How about the Enclave's Nazi doctor or their space neon strip club military base? Or, you know, the fact that there is an Enclave at all at this point? Is that perfectly fine for you?

14. Again, see number 1.

And finally just one more thing to close... "Show me where the pedophilia in the mod is"? Really?

@gavingold ahhh i get what you mean. ill definetly agree new vegas gun play isnt the best, and i agree that if you were trying to turn new vegas into a racing game or something like that it would be kinda dumb, i was more saying for the useful or cool sort of thing like using vehicles to get across the wasteland in limited ways if you were doing a no fast travel playthrough or just were tired of how long it takes to traverse in a normal game. Or having raiders in cars appear as enemies in areas where it would make sense like the dry lake or the race track

@princevegeta2005 In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have cars as a substitute for fast travel. I'm sure some people will enjoy it. For me, I'd have to see how it actually plays out. Exploring the wastes and running into enemies is part of the whole experience. Plus, some of the vehicles like tanks or Vertibirds would just break the game by making exploration or combat too easy.

unimaginative story telling yes a large ego problem sure BUT i like a lot of the mechanics so at the end of the day just another lesson for future and current projects to learn from.

I think that's something we can all agree on, a lot of lessons (hopefully) were learned from what transpired.

@roflcopter117 No, I'm not sure we can all agree on that. When you look at the way the guys in charge of, or even associated with, the mod have reacted to all this, I don't think any of them have learned anything.

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gavin gold wrote:

@roflcopter117 No, I'm not sure we can all agree on that. When you look at the way the guys in charge of, or even associated with, the mod have reacted to all this, I don't think any of them have learned anything.

----------------------------

For those who were antagonistic towards the community, I can agree with you. A few individuals only amplified the behavior that caused a lot of this mess after the dust settled(I don't think everyone was like that though, I only saw some of the team act that way; a few others seemed okay). I'm sure other long-term project teams took notes on what not to do after this fiasco though. Even I learned something; I somewhat changed my views regarding Bethesda's writing after this.

@roflcopter117

Quote :

For those who were antagonistic towards the community, I can agree with you. A few individuals only amplified the behavior that caused a lot of this mess after the dust settled(I don't think everyone was like that though, I only saw some of the team act that way; a few others seemed okay).

Ego gets in the way, especially after working 7 years on a project, they were too invested. You look at the mod page on Nexus, the first few days people were having a collective orgasm. Then it started crashing down and they just weren't mentally prepared for it.

It also doesn't help that a lot of these people are not... let's say, "socially sharp". At least that's the impression I get. Xilandro, who I like as a talented modder, took this thing horribly and even in his most recent video was insulting those who even mildly criticized the Frontier.

I don't know if you saw this but recently there was this guy boomstick467 who wanted to create a remaster for NV (a compilation of other mods). When the mod was published, Xilandro started to harass the guy over supposedly using mods without the author's permission (none of his mods, just other people's). Boomstick claimed he didn't. Xilandro then demanded proof (as in a full post with pictures and everything). I asked him to stop and made a light joke about the Frontier. Next thing I know, Xilandro had blocked me and the mod had been taken down.

Now, look, I don't know if boomstick was actually breaking the rules, and if he did, then the mod should have been taken down, but there's people in charge of that. You don't go around demanding people prove themselves to you. And if he wants to ban me, that's OK, I don't really care. But to me it just screams a person that can't take criticism. I would never block someone for making a joke, or pointing out that maybe I should not have done something.

And also, Nexus has been protecting them, and I suspect that has reinforced the idea that they were in the right and people who criticized them were just bad faith trolls. Someone was banned from Nexus the other day for commenting "Sneed". That was it, just "sneed". Meanwhile all the Frontier's content is still there even though it breaks their own rules.

Quote :

Even I learned something; I somewhat changed my views regarding Bethesda's writing after this.

A lot of people did.

Agree. it should be better off with Courier to escape himself by using one of your Special and Skills in a good use maybe with high Agility or high Survival skill or maybe certain Perks will help the Courier escape, of course, that would be a challenge to script and decide how it will go because it involve stealth and lots of sneak but that's much better than having deserter army out of nowhere just to rescue ur ass. Or maybe in better option, why not have this deserter army from an extensive range distance with silenced sniper rifle shooting your way out while you sneak careful? I'm no writer but imo this is a much better case than what we got here LOL.. I guess devs team playing GTA 5 a lot that the wanted to use that character switch system so much huh.

My god this thing has been such a mixed bag. The main story content and the random degen stuff was wack as hell, but their really is a buncha decent content that kinda got lost in the middle of the shitshow. The Cars were awesome as well as pretty much all the armor and weapons. Alotta the set pieces looked badass, but my god the writing. The NCR questline feels like a bunch of standout awesome scenes from various movies slapped together incoherently, it was like they couldn't nail down a proper tone for the mod and thus just feels off. I don't regret downloading it but my god did it have some flaws. Shoutout to Xilandro tho, that man is a goddamn Wizard.

Honestly I don't know how you guys feel about New California here but personally I enjoyed it far less than The Frontier. So I definitely don't think it's the most disappointing mod. I did really like exploring in the Frontier, the armor and weapons in the mod are alone worth the download, and generally I had fun.

Now I will say the writing is bad at most times, abysmal at some, and some dialogue is just plain creepy. I played the mod within an hour of it being released and the same night that it was released I remember talking to my roommate about how creepy America was as a character and how the mod would've been better off deleting her entirely. And the main leaders of all of the factions were just stock good guys and bad guys with no real depth. I played through the NCR and the Crusaders lines, going to do the legion eventually. I honestly can say I hated the NCR line, every single mission was too long. The concepts got old almost immediately. And with the crusaders most of the characters were either a bit annoying or had no personality. The Domina being the clearest case of "no personality."

Overall I hope a team takes the mod with all of its map, armors, weapons, and flat out rewrites most of it, definitely the Crusaders and NCR questlines. I love writing, love lore in games, it's been a hobby and passion for a few years. The Frontier didn't hit the spot, and besides the fairly well made map and exploration, had unappealing main quests. I will say I like the concept of the Crusaders and the NCR Exiles if they'd been handled differently, but I think we could've used a break from the Legion.

rosebrandt wrote:

Honestly I don't know how you guys feel about New California here but personally I enjoyed it far less than The Frontier. So I definitely don't think it's the most disappointing mod. I did really like exploring in the Frontier, the armor and weapons in the mod are alone worth the download, and generally I had fun.

Thats a strong second from me my dude. Hell I'd of loved to get Fallout New California to work but just could never get it to function. Seemed like it had alotta potential.

@rosebrandt When I say it's the biggest disappointment it modding history, I don't mean it's the worst mod ever made. That's very much impossible to say, Nexus alone hosts hundreds of thousands of mods. And how do you compare something like this to mods that might change a few textures or add one new monster? They're just different things.

In terms of expectations however, this might have been the most hyped up mod in history. People downloaded it so much on release that Nexus crashed. And not only did they failed to live up to those expectations but the whole thing went up in flames. I have genuinely never seen such a huge fail.

In terms of equipment, I know many people will like it. To me, it just breaks the lore too much. So I can't even save that.

The danger of overhyping is real; I was on this site since the days of Fo3 Underground and I was here when it was being shilled and hyped from the beginning. I wasn't even a mod when this project started. So this large number of people being let down and the 7 year wait really amplified the anger. New Cali has its share of issues but it tried to keep things grounded in fallout and it was not hyped to this extreme.

The Frontier can have all of the neat features in the world, but the degeneracy within the mod is just outright disgusting. It ruins the experience of the mod entirely, at least in my eyes.

I do think that the devs were well aware of Zu's activities, and I think they only did something when it was noticed by the public. Remember, he only did the icons, he didn't add in the underage foot-fetish slave, the teenage twitter p--n artist, or the deathclaw romance option and snake-people.