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who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? | who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? | |
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Jarhead505
Posts : 79 Join date : 2015-04-18 Location : earth
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:04 am | |
| I love the ncr but with how thin they are I think the legion unless the ncr just used vertibirds and sent all the ncr rangers to the dam. |
| | | XRhino
Posts : 435 Join date : 2014-06-08 Age : 26 Location : Vault 111
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:43 am | |
| I Think the NCR would defeat the Legion because all the NCR would have to do is set up multiple Vet Rangers up in the area to pick off Legate Lanius and all of the other Legion soldiers. Also the NCR has "Heavy Troops" which are Ncr Troops in Power Armor with Mini-Guns, Just another reason the NCR would dominate over the Legion at Hoover Damn without the courier... _________________ Herro!
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| | | BlackZeroVB
Posts : 77 Join date : 2015-04-15 Age : 36 Location : Virginia, United States
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:16 am | |
| Probably Mr. House. I'm sure he had several contingencies should the Courier not pan out. Honorable mention goes to the NCR. As mighty as football pads and lawn-mower blades are, I think bullets win out. Also, a big part of the NCR's lack of progress was poor leadership. I'm sure if Oliver drug his feet for too much longer, he'd be replaced with someone more aggressive. |
| | | MWguitarist
Posts : 119 Join date : 2015-06-21
Character sheet Name: Character Faction: Level:
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:43 am | |
| - jkdsh wrote:
- Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank... The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.
NCR Advantages: 1. Huge amounts of weapons. 2. Serious training. 3. Better armor. 4. Snipers. 5. Vertibirds. 6. The people of the Mojave Wasteland seem none to fond of the Legion. 7. They know the territory. 8. Better, bigger, weapons.
Legion Advantage: 1. Numbers. True, just kind of funny to think with all this they have now, why have such a hard time with the legion to begin with. Plot progression is plot progression i guess for the sake of video game quests XD |
| | | PoisonEliteGaming
Posts : 78 Join date : 2015-06-27 Location : New Vegas
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:28 am | |
| - themaster96 wrote:
- PoisonEliteGaming wrote:
- jkdsh wrote:
- Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank... The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.
Yeah I really don't see the Legion ever winning, sure they're persistent but that doesn't do jack shit when you have missiles striking you and soldiers shooting you with rifles while the only protection you have on is football armor. Like i said in a world with weapons of mass destruction numbers and persistency doesnt matter Yeah, it's the equivalent over 100 men with no armor on and no weapons attacking 10 men with Enclave power armor on and miniguns. _________________ Surviving the Wasteland. One shot at a time. |
| | | wotan
Posts : 60 Join date : 2015-06-25 Age : 59 Location : Danderyd/Sweden
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:18 pm | |
| - Grimmex wrote:
- mindstormer wrote:
- Definitely the Legion. While the NCR is waging war with the Legion, they are also at war with the fiends and the raiders, which is draining the pockets of the NCR. The NCR also has a problem with their supply lines, soldiers aren't equipped well and they are on ration.
The NCR took it on them selfs to take care of refugees (like bitter springs). Doing this the NCR is wasting menpower and supplies.
While the NCR is fighting enemies from all kind off directions and is facing a lot of diverse problems, the Legion is regaining strenght and they are building up their forces again at the fort. I am sure that the NCR isn't able to repel another attack from the Legion, at least not if they continue to waste money on side issues. Yeah, as much as i hate to agree (cause i side with the NCR or House), i feel as though you're right. Aye, you have a point. The NCR can hardly keep up with the Legion - they have to cope with war weariness and overstetched supply lines. Furthermore, there are the Fiends and the escaped convicts and more. The Legion can just bolster their numbers with new blood from all the crazy raiders and local tribes they come across. But should it come to the fact that Caesar dies (he does have a lethal brain tumor after all), the Legion will fall apart like a house of cards. |
| | | AMOneEighty
Posts : 150 Join date : 2014-11-26 Age : 28
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:36 am | |
| That depends on whether or not the "intervention" means the whole Benny shooting you and you survive happens or not, if it was something like the Courier getting shot and dying, then maybe Benny would of won, or in that case Mr House, if the Courier just decided to leave with the chip then the Legion won, in any scenario in my opinion, the NCR would pretty much always lose, the only reason they won the first time was because they got the element of suprise, but they also took a hit themselves and sacrificed a lot of their men, something they couldn't of afforded to do. |
| | | kravisl1
Posts : 66 Join date : 2015-06-28 Age : 31
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:25 am | |
| Without the courier's intervention at all I think the NCR would win, they did win the 1st battle, so chances are they would win the 2nd battle as well in my opinion, but Benny had some tricks up his sleeve as well, but I think the NCR would win . No offense to all of you Legion fans |
| | | AMOneEighty
Posts : 150 Join date : 2014-11-26 Age : 28
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:44 am | |
| Haha pro- Independence here, but I don't think they would of won, they won by a landslide during the first battle. During the course of the game there's clear signs that the NCR are not all that powerful in the Mojave, and without the Couriers intervention a lot of quests you do for the NCR ("I Put A Spell On You", "Restoring Hope" etc) would of been in favor of the Legion and they would of beat the NCR before the battle even begun. |
| | | xj427
Posts : 20 Join date : 2015-05-04 Age : 27
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:00 am | |
| The legion would win in the end the problem comes in when Caesar dies the legion could fall apart or worse civil war which would give time for the ncr to attack again Caesar would have to take Vegas fast and try and convince his soldier not to just fight for him but to fight for Rome (Vegas) just like the ancient Romans. the Romans fought for Rome not just there leader. The legion would have to do the same thing |
| | | oldboy
Posts : 226 Join date : 2014-11-11 Age : 35 Location : Los Angeles
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:20 am | |
| - AMOneEighty wrote:
- Haha pro- Independence here, but I don't think they would of won, they won by a landslide during the first battle. During the course of the game there's clear signs that the NCR are not all that powerful in the Mojave, and without the Couriers intervention a lot of quests you do for the NCR ("I Put A Spell On You", "Restoring Hope" etc) would of been in favor of the Legion and they would of beat the NCR before the battle even begun.
True, and look what happened at the NCR Correctional Facility - a bunch of criminals(powder gangers) rebelled and took over the facility...did the NCR take it back? nope, they lacked manpower and the resources to do so. |
| | | AMOneEighty
Posts : 150 Join date : 2014-11-26 Age : 28
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:26 am | |
| That's really how it all worked, the NCR in the Mojave anyway is a very weak faction, only making up for it in maybe numbers. Without the couriers aid, they would of been crushed by House/Legion |
| | | oldboy
Posts : 226 Join date : 2014-11-11 Age : 35 Location : Los Angeles
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:33 am | |
| - jkdsh wrote:
- Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank... The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.
NCR Advantages: 1. Huge amounts of weapons. 2. Serious training. 3. Better armor. 4. Snipers. 5. Vertibirds. 6. The people of the Mojave Wasteland seem none to fond of the Legion. 7. They know the territory. 8. Better, bigger, weapons.
Legion Advantage: 1. Numbers. Lets look at the korean war. when the chinese intervened they won through sheer numbers. i heard some of them didnt even have weapons...they literally had to pick up weapons from their dead comrades. EDIT: allied forces had superior training and equipments and the chinese still managed to push them back. |
| | | Soju
Posts : 2266 Join date : 2014-10-19 Location : USA
Character sheet Name: ---------------------- Faction: --------------------- Level: ----------------------
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:46 am | |
| - jkdsh wrote:
- Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank... The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.
NCR Advantages: 1. Huge amounts of weapons. 2. Serious training. 3. Better armor. 4. Snipers. 5. Vertibirds. 6. The people of the Mojave Wasteland seem none to fond of the Legion. 7. They know the territory. 8. Better, bigger, weapons.
Legion Advantage: 1. Numbers. Let me adds them up for you and also fix some. - Spoiler:
NCR disadvantages: 1. Barely enough troops to cover Mojave 2. Low morale overall. - People tend to forget Camp Forlorn Hope - NCR's primary forward camp in the east. Without the Courier's intervention, that camp would have been outrun/deserted anytime because NCR can't spare the men to give them more troops and supplies. If they try to go out and find supplies, Legion would kill them. 3. Not all NCR troops use riot armors, most of them use leather ones like the Legion anyway. 4. Weather, NCR troops usually complain and wish for a nuclear winter - uncomfortable, whereas the Legions are more adapted to the weather. 5. NCR troops are not well-trained. Most of them are conscripts - which is low quality/poorly trained soldiers. 6. Low will, form reason #5. 7. Legion's agents within NCR force feeding informations to Legion (quest I Put a Spell on You, remember he'd almost never have been caught if the Courier hasn't intervened). 8. Chief Hanlon (commanding officer of the NCR expeditionary force into the Mojave region, also highly influential in the Rangers) feeding false information to the NCR force itself, stirs everything up in hope of a resistance to rise against the higher echelons of the NCR military. 9. President Kim Ball would have been assassinated during his speech and visit in Hoover Dam to boost soldiers' morale, which could ultimately kill the troops' morale (will) and makes every Mojave and NCR citizens to doubt their army's power (if you've killed Kim Ball, by the nuke from The Divide or any other means, you'll know). 10. Potential uprisings (high taxes, annex the entire Mojave without asking the people living in it, won't provide protection overall (Primm for an example) etc). 11. General is Oliver (lol obviously). 12. Legion attacked Nipton (the closest town to NCR's border to the Mojave that is heavily guarded) and burned it to the ground without them even knowing it. 13. Powder Gangers. 14. Being used by Mr.House (he opens his Strips to NCR soldiers so he could suck their money lol, of course Mr.House has never fancied these guys), this could also be know from talking to Chief Hanlon. 15. Lower physical strength. 16. Low number. (Of course) 17. No vertiberds to support the war at the Dam. 18. Soldiers are not disciplined (well they are just conscripts after all). I am sure there are more than this but this'll do. Legion advantages: 1. High number (higher than the first war, Legion got help this time (they gathered soldiers from all over the region not just the Mojave, slave soldiers from tribes that Lanius conquered or enslaved)). In the area, they got the Omertas, Khans as allies. 2. New Legate (the first war was lost because their Legate got arrogance and think they'll do just fine by outnumbering them so he just orders his troops to use the "men rush" tactic, thus resulted in getting trapped in an explosive town and killed, now he's known as The Burned Man if you played Honest Hearts), that won't happens again. 3. New strategy ( #2). 4. Legion is facing a dumb NCR's general (General's Oliver, who I assume think the same thing as Joshua Graham, he stationed a lot of troops at Hoover Dam thinking a lot of troops will do just fine). 5. Multi directional attacks (if you've finished the game, surely you know that if you side with the NCR, the Legion attacks from both the outside and inside Hoover Dam, NCR wouldn't have been able to hold it without the Courier). 6. Loyal troops with high will/trust their leaders/fight to the death. 7. Physical strength/melee advantage. 8. Caesar's a natural military strategist (Caesar aided the Blackfoot, a tribe, taught them how to use guns and military strategies, thus won the war against other tribes). 9. Terrorize attacks using Hit & Run tactic (Ranger Station Charlie, Camp Searchlight, Nelson, Nipton). 10. Absolute disciplined soldiers, obey without questions - thus make them more effective. 11. Higher level of safety guaranteed for traders (no/little raiders in their territory). 12. High ranking troops (Centurions) use more advanced weapons than even the lots of NCR (Anti-material rifles in game, carbines). - Not sure if the Legion could fix the howitzer at their camp without the Courier's help, however, they do know that the Boomers have parts to fix them, so I'm not sure whether they can get it and fix the howitzer and uses it in the 2nd war or not so this won't count as one. 13. Spies in NCR's forces. 14. Dogs. It's all about the dogs. I mean mongrels.
To sums it up, both sides have obvious advantages and what not, but whoever they choose I can see their reasons. And I chose the Legion because, well, reasons stated above. |
| | | brettozi13
Posts : 18 Join date : 2015-04-17 Age : 34 Location : Norwich, England
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:20 pm | |
| What y'all need to remember is that if certain events in the mojave didn't have the courier help with them then they would have got somebody else to do it instead because it still needs to be done. like the camp forlon hope which doesn't have an ending slide show etc.
_________________ The last thing you'll never see ~1st Recon Slogan
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| | | metallic0925
Posts : 72 Join date : 2015-06-05 Location : New York
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:46 pm | |
| I keep seeing a lot about NCR winning simply due to having more available firearms. However, people seem to be overlooking the logistical nightmare the Mojave occupation is for the NCR. The legion has a massive manpower and resource pool to draw from, whereas the NCR is in a significantly weaker position. The NCR's ability to hold off the legion assault at the dam would last only as long as the resources it can muster for the fight, not even considering the possibilities of a break in morale or desertion. I saw mention of heavy troopers with lmgs or miniguns and ranger snipers being a sort of trump card for the NCR. But considering the NCR can barely equip its conscripts with proper armor, how many of these soldiers can it effectively field? While an lmg provides more firepower for its size compared to the service rifles most troopers use, it also requires a significantly larger ammo pool to be effective. Fielding its heaviest troopers in large numbers would severely stress NCR logistics. Claiming NCR's assured victory assumes that the NCR's logistics are perfectly functioning to be able to fuel a large scale conflict.
Logistics becomes even more of an issue when you take into consideration the factions the legion has recruited to assist them in the Mojave, and other resistance the NCR has to face. The legion has a focused goal, capture of the dam and breaking the NCR. The NCR has to face the legion, police its assets in the strip, hold off the fiends, protect its trade routes, deal with the BoS, etc. They only have so many troops, so as soon as the battle for the dam begins, its going to have to focus its efforts. The NCR will have to begin moving men and resources continuously to the dam to mount its defense and be able to counterattack if the moment arises. But with the planned Omerta revolt on the strip, the Khans making their move from the west, and the the aggressiveness of the fiends, the NCR is going to have its work cut out for itself defending these supply routes.
All and all, I feel that the NCR just doesn't have the logistical capability to mount a successful defense of Hoover dam without courier intervention. I'm not saying the legion will simply walk all over them. The battle will be long and bloody, with the NCR probably holding out for a good while with heavy casualties on both sides. But in the end, the NCR defenders are simply going to run out of supplies. And I am not very confident in the combat ability of standard troopers who have run out of ammo. |
| | | Cultist
Posts : 32 Join date : 2015-04-19 Age : 30 Location : Brazil
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:22 pm | |
| Caesar's Legion obviously, Legion doesn't retreat and doesn't depend on any type of drug for fighting, unlike the hussies from the NCR. But it ain't got do much as the tunnelers will come to the Mojave and shit will go down. _________________ |
| | | AMOneEighty
Posts : 150 Join date : 2014-11-26 Age : 28
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:06 pm | |
| While I think someone else as Mr. New Vegas says "A civilian contractor" would help I don't think it would of had that much of an impact that the Courier did, I mean they talk about how he single handledly turned the tide against The Legion during an NCR play through |
| | | Soju
Posts : 2266 Join date : 2014-10-19 Location : USA
Character sheet Name: ---------------------- Faction: --------------------- Level: ----------------------
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:39 pm | |
| - brettozi13 wrote:
- What y'all need to remember is that if certain events in the mojave didn't have the courier help with them then they would have got somebody else to do it instead because it still needs to be done. like the camp forlon hope which doesn't have an ending slide show etc.
Unlikely to have a random guy shows up at Camp Forlorn Hope and willing to help those NCR guys out. That place is surrounded by Legion forces outside. They couldn't even bring supplies back to the camp remember? And if I remember right they didn't pay at all or very little. Not saying it's impossible but just unlikely, not everyone in the Mojave can be on the Courier's level of Messiah . |
| | | AMOneEighty
Posts : 150 Join date : 2014-11-26 Age : 28
| Subject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention? Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:24 pm | |
| That's really why everyone wants you to help them, because you can turn the side by yourself, even Cesaer/NCR can go "Yeah we know you basically ruined everything but you're so cool please join us it's all good" |
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