The NCR, In my opinion, Would take the cake for the Battle of Hoover Dam, Here's why...

1. The NCR permits the use of up to date medical technology for all of its soldiers, Whereas the Legion does not.

The NCR is not hindered by the fear of technological advancement, like the Legion is, Ergo, The Legion restricts all of the machinery and sophisticated tech for it's leaders ONLY, (See Caesar's autodoc), While the NCR might not be swimming in Stimpaks or bandages, It at least, would allow their troopers to make use of it, Which has more chance of saving an NCR soldier than the Legion's backward herbal medicine would save a Legionnaire.

2. The NCR has a platitude of Pre-War and heavily modified Post-War tech and weapons at it's behest.

Pretty obvious, The NCR has the tech and the guns on their side, See their Veteran Rangers, Who sport LA Riot Gear and use something akin to a 50. Cal Sniper rifle (Or whatever the AM rifle is), or their Heavy Troopers, Which sport modded T-45 Power Armor and Miniguns or Flamers, to boot. The Legion only provides what would seem to be leather re-enforced sports gear, to even it's highest officers, See Vulpes and Lucius for this, A clear cut point in the NCR's favour.

3. The NCR at least, somewhat, cares about it's soldiers.

This one is another obvious point, but needs to be stated, The Legion does not care about it's soldiers, Even so far as to call them expendable at best and meatshields on legs at worst. Imagine an NCR trooper in the battle, Is hit in the leg, One of his peers would attempt to help him and patch him up, Keeping that extra pair of hands in the fight, Shooting the Legion, Now, Imagine a Legionnaire was shot in the leg. His peers would just leave him to bleed or use him as a meatshield.

4. Finally, The Legion's persecution of women and minorities.

This is their biggest mistake, The Legion's hate for women and minorities not only provides them with less soldiers to fight, It would flat out create resentment akin to what happened in 1800's America, This can lead to escapes and maybe even coup d'etat's that would benefit the NCR, Now, Due to the NCR's policy of little to no sexism in their ranks, As well as accepting Ghouls, This not only provides them soldiers, But it will make them feel like what they are fighting for is just and worth dying for.


I'll rest my case now

Although I agree with you you're forgetting that with the legions killing and treatment of the people who they consider to be a minority enables them to have a "pure" army which per head is probably a lot more effective than the NCR.

brettozi13 wrote:

Although I agree with you you're forgetting that with the legions killing and treatment of the people who they consider to be a minority enables them to have a "pure" army which per head is probably a lot more effective than the NCR.

Per head, I'd think that the NCR are better, actually.

I saw a brilliant comment on a youtube video the other day. It went something like this;

"A US Marine can have the best training in the world. But that doesn't make up for the fact that, without their technology, they'd still be vulnerable to a 14 year old insurgent popping their heart at 200 yards"

Technology wins wars. Even though half of all NCR troops are 2 week wonders;
Assuming they have been taught to use a rifle (which isn't as difficult as training to use a sword), they should do fine against someone who doesn't have one (which would be most legion troops). The toughness of legionaries is probably overstated, too - the armour wielded by pretty much all troops, barring the Legate, is a set of glorified football padding.

We can get into a debate over the stopping power of, for example, 5.56 ammo and 9mm. But unless the legion troops are hopped on something, they're not going to ignore a center-mass shot from either of them. In fact, a vital hit from pretty much any caliber .22 and up is likely to have you on the floor fairly quickly.

AdotLOM wrote:

brettozi13 wrote:

Although I agree with you you're forgetting that with the legions killing and treatment of the people who they consider to be a minority enables them to have a "pure" army which per head is probably a lot more effective than the NCR.

Per head, I'd think that the NCR are better, actually.

I saw a brilliant comment on a youtube video the other day. It went something like this;

"A US Marine can have the best training in the world. But that doesn't make up for the fact that, without their technology, they'd still be vulnerable to a 14 year old insurgent popping their heart at 200 yards"

Technology wins wars. Even though half of all NCR troops are 2 week wonders;
Assuming they have been taught to use a rifle (which isn't as difficult as training to use a sword), they should do fine against someone who doesn't have one (which would be most legion troops). The toughness of legionaries is probably overstated, too - the armour wielded by pretty much all troops, barring the Legate, is a set of glorified football padding.

We can get into a debate over the stopping power of, for example, 5.56 ammo and 9mm. But unless the legion troops are hopped on something, they're not going to ignore a center-mass shot from either of them. In fact, a vital hit from pretty much any caliber .22 and up is likely to have
you on the floor fairly quickly.

Pretty daft stuff in FNV, To say the least, Legionnaire Armor wouldn't protect you against ANYTHING, Not that I'm saying the NCR Trooper armor would stop half a clip of 5.56mm rounds, But atleast that can PROTECT you from one or two mistakes that Legion Armor could have planted you 6 feet under for trusting it.

Legion wins because reasons... after the battle Legion's numbers is greatly reduced, Mr.House jumps in with his robot army and killed them off.
=> Mr.House wins .

alonewolf003 wrote:

Legion wins because reasons... after the battle Legion's numbers is greatly reduced, Mr.House jumps in with his robot army and killed them off.
=> Mr.House wins .

B-but... Mr. House's securitrons are even worse than Legionnaires....

Their 9mm cannons may as well shoot peas...

I recall that the only reason that the NCR struggled so much was because the Legion overwhelmed them with sheer numbers.

NCR Rangers are apparently effective enough to turn the tide against such a numerically superior enemy. Coming to think of it, it's actually quite easy to see why.

Sierran wrote:

alonewolf003 wrote:

Legion wins because reasons... after the battle Legion's numbers is greatly reduced, Mr.House jumps in with his robot army and killed them off.
=> Mr.House wins .

B-but... Mr. House's securitrons are even worse than Legionnaires....

Their 9mm cannons may as well shoot peas...

Legion's original armors don't look like it can hold any bullets back . Plus I don't think his securitrons are going to be killed off by spears, though some legionaires got that Carbine Rifle.

Considering the NCR actually has vertiberds and some trained pilots, I'm surprised they don't just do a bombing run on the Legion camp near Hoover dam.

AdotLOM wrote:

I recall that the only reason that the NCR struggled so much was because the Legion overwhelmed them with sheer numbers.

NCR Rangers are apparently effective enough to turn the tide against such a numerically superior enemy. Coming to think of it, it's actually quite easy to see why.

Since the majority of the Legion's attacking force comes in waves, Swinging those cheese grater machetes or are using pathetic guns, Give a bunch of Gamblers you find on the Strip Service Rifles and the battle would be won.

As much as I dislike them, without the courier's intervention things are heavily stacked in favor of the Legion.  The NCR just has way too many problems on all fronts, primarily logistics and morale, and most of them are only alleviated through help from the courier should the player choose to aid the NCR.  When you enter the world of New Vegas, several events are already in motion that are posed to cripple the NCR.

- The spy at Camp McCarran keeps the Legion informed of the NCR's movements, and is able to carry out acts of terrorism without detection.  They are stopped only by the intervention of the courier.
- NCR morale is at an all time low, and not helped by efforts of people such as Chief Hanlon.  Many NPCs mention desertion as an issue, and that most new recruits are ill equiped defensively for combat.
- The Legion vastly outnumbers the NCR, even with generally inferior technology, and also has allies established to aid them from within NCR territory.
- Without the courier, I find it unlikely Benny or House would have been able to effectively make use of the platinum chip, leaving the main securitron force out of commission.

This is just what I could think of off the top of my head.  All in all, I just don't see things working out in the NCR's favor.  Since the 1st battle for the dam, the Legion has just been assembling its troops on the other side of the river.  I feel that without the courier aiding them, the NCR would be unable to adequately defend itself against the brute force the Legion would unleash against them.

@brettozi13

Yeah, but how'd he get captured in the first place? I faintly think I remember it being something about his Stealth Boy wearing off, but I'm not sure if I remember correctly.

I mean, if he wouldn't be forced to spontaneously flee, he'd probably prepare his trip a bit better.

Something worthy of note, however;

Due to the engine limitations, stuff like vertibird assaults and battery fire cannot be accurately simulated;

For example - isn't the fort well within the range of the AA gun on the dam?

metallic0925 wrote:

As much as I dislike them, without the courier's intervention things are heavily stacked in favor of the Legion.  The NCR just has way too many problems on all fronts, primarily logistics and morale, and most of them are only alleviated through help from the courier should the player choose to aid the NCR.  When you enter the world of New Vegas, several events are already in motion that are posed to cripple the NCR.

- The spy at Camp McCarran keeps the Legion informed of the NCR's movements, and is able to carry out acts of terrorism without detection.  They are stopped only by the intervention of the courier.
- NCR morale is at an all time low, and not helped by efforts of people such as Chief Hanlon.  Many NPCs mention desertion as an issue, and that most new recruits are ill equiped defensively for combat.
- The Legion vastly outnumbers the NCR, even with generally inferior technology, and also has allies established to aid them from within NCR territory.
- Without the courier, I find it unlikely Benny or House would have been able to effectively make use of the platinum chip, leaving the main securitron force out of commission.

This is just what I could think of off the top of my head.  All in all, I just don't see things working out in the NCR's favor.  Since the 1st battle for the dam, the Legion has just been assembling its troops on the other side of the river.  I feel that without the courier aiding them, the NCR would be unable to adequately defend itself against the brute force the Legion would unleash against them.

As much as i hate the legion, im gonna have to agree with this. NCR cant even protect their trade routes from fiends and other bandits. in fact, they couldnt even take care of dangerous fiend members without the couriers help...cook-cook, motorhead, violet etc.

oldboy wrote:

As much as i hate the legion, im gonna have to agree with this. NCR cant even protect their trade routes from fiends and other bandits. in fact, they couldnt even take care of dangerous fiend members without the couriers help...cook-cook, motorhead, violet etc.

I've been thinking about this, but who's to say that the Courier is the only person capable of, for example, taking the bounty of the Fiend leaders?

Long history pal , the NCR win the first battle at Hoover Dam of course with help from the rangers(best snipers in the game ) the rangers and the NCR have destroyed the Caesar's army , with the defeat Joshua Graham a Caesar's right arm was punished by the defeat he was set in fire and falled from a cliff and now he lives as " the burned man " .

I'm agreeing with a lot of people here saying that the legion would most definitely win the battle, the NCR really wouldn't be able to protect themselves and they are not doing very well against the fiends let alone the Legion.

Interesting question...

If the courier died in Goodsprings Benny would have the platinum chip. But Since the Securitrons are in their hidden vault he'd have to go through ceasar's camp. If he gets captured like in the game then the Legion will get access to the Securitrons and they will win.
If Benny isn't captured and gets the securitron army he could win the fight.

IIRC If you sided with the NCR you would be sent throughout the wasteland in hopes of getting support for the NCR. If someone else did this the NCR would be a worthy enemy for either Benny or the Legion. Especially if they can get the boomers to blow ceasars army to bits.

So... what you're saying.. is that the Boomers win?
I knew it :3

Seriously, I'd like to think that long term, they'd eek out a land-grab once the Legion reach the same situation as the NCR did after they won (providing that the Legion win of course). Pearl is eager to open up to the outside world just when the courier meets them anyways, and things like fiends and such won't be a problem for them (They got like a 38:1 kill ratio against everything the fought beforehand).

Im pretty sure that the Legion would absolutely crucify (haha) the NCR at Hoover Dam. Legion Centurions use Anti-Materiel rifles just like rangers, the Legion massively outnumber the NCR garrison in the Mojave, and the NCR are being attacked from all sides. The NCR are maintaining garrisons in McCarran and Golf, and are still involved in a standoff over Nelson, so the majority of their forces are spread out, I'd say barely half of their troops available for the battle at the Dam. We also see Legion fighters using 12.7mm submachine guns, and the base legion soldiers often use cowboy repeaters which are way more effective against armor than service rifles. The Legate is also acknowledged as the best military commander in the Mojave, and General Oliver is pretty meh at best, and Kimball would have been assassinated if the Courier didn't get involved. The NCR also suffered huge supply shortages, not having enough troops to bring down even the Fiends, or to break the stalemate at Nelson. First Recon is tied up at McCarran if the Courier doesn't intervene, so they wouldn't be at all helpful. The rangers are being basically paralyzed by Hanlon's scaremongering, and he would most likely try to delay the rangers from going to help the other forces as he actively tries to make the NCR leave the Mojave with the radio broadcasts. Also the rangers are scattered over the Mojave in the Ranger stations, so the bulk of the rangers can't make it to Hoover Dam, and they were the only reason the NCR won last time. It's pretty clear that the Legion would obliterate the NCR pretty easily as things stand. That's why the game presents it as an uphill struggle for the NCR, because it really is an uphill struggle, they are at a complete disadvantage.