Legion, the failed last time because they had Josh and because they were stupid.
Now they have Lanius, I think they have this.

It's mentioned a few times in the game, and also you can read on various sites----the Legion far outnumbers the NCR. By a lot. The Legion has sheer numbers on their side, not to mention many of them are completely insane. If the courier had died, then no doubt the Legion would take the dam, unless Mr. House stopped pitting them against each other and backed the NCR.

Legion would probably win, they had a plan and executed it would result in a crushing blow to NCR's moral and key figures. NCR would then probably be on the backfoot for the remainder of their days until Mr. House comes swooping down to clean everything up, namely by then NCR probably no longer be useful and Mr. House doesn't like the Legion so in the end Mr. house's goals win but for the short term Legion wins.
It sounded clear in my head but the way I wrote it probably messed it up. :/

Legion would win...but without HELIOS ONE working the strip has no power then....House would probably side with the NCR to take the Hoover Dam back

I would say legion. They would win by just overrunning the NCR.

brettozi13 wrote:

In a hypothetical situation where the courier died on that fateful night up Goodspring's cemetery, who do you think would have one the battle of hoover dam bearing in mind that certain events in the wasteland would've never occurred without the courier and he also helped all the parties prepare for the battle (depending on who you chose).

I personally think that NCR would have one because Mr.House wouldn't have his upgraded securitrons or as many either because they are below the fort. also benny would have the platinum chip so i'm curious to how that would plan out with yes man and him! The legion would've killed kimball at the dam visit which would impact NCR morale but seeming as they one the first battle of hoover dam i still think they would've won.

Tell me what you think would've happened or any other quests/events in the mojave that would turn out differently without the courier!

I feel that the NCR would lose the dam for a short while only to come back and retake it later

I would say that the legion would have won. There would be far to many problems for the NCR to handle the second time around. The attrition at forlorn hope would have drained the NCR of men and supplies. The fiends would have kept hundreds if not a thousand soldiers from the front. What would have worked the first time would not have worked the second time. Caesar would have not fallen for the ranger ruse and Legate Lanius would be able to punch through the NCR line. It would all come down to man power and moral. The NCR had been stuck in the war for a long time. Watching their sons die in a far away land would make it unpopular. The legion would be conquering territory and adding men to its ranks by the thousands. The legion's dedication to the name of Caesar and his God like status would be enough to boost moral. While the average NCR soldier might not even understand the concept of democracy let alone want to die for it. Sufficed to say the legion would have an easy victory if it was not for the courier.

tl;dr NCR is fucked without the courier.

Well considering the NCR NPCs almost always destroy the legion NPCs I'd say the NCR. Plus if you insert logic into it, football pads won't do squat to save you from 5.56mm NATO.

Yeah with Lanius the Legion would win for sure but in that case I think Mr. House would have no choice than back the NCR.
On the other hand The legion would have the Khans. Yeah the securitron are stronger than the khans but I dont think they would fight 1vs1. Just like in game of thrones that Daenerys has 3 dragons, unsullied, dothraki, Tyrell, Dorne and Greyjoys and still Cersei is winning with a better strategy.
Benny was never able to enter the Lucky 38 or the fort.

So my caps are on the legion.
Ave. True to Caesar!

i'll give it to the legion.
why, the NCR morale is sapped, Any major push by the legion on the NCR lines and they will most likely rout.
long term goes to NCR though.

The Legion most likely would win the battle due to them being under the command of Legatus Lanius. Lanius is a very strict commander and tactician striking fear into his own men so they may function better on the battlefield and become an overall stronger soldier. Although the legion's armor and weaponry are not as superior as the NCR's their tactics and training may be superior. The NCR is at a very stressful point in the war dealing with internal conflicts from it's own men and extern conflicts such as The Fiends, Khans, The Kings, and Mr. House. The legion doesn't face much of a threat except for the NCR really. So overall the Legion would most likely win the battle.

I'm really surprised to see that people mostly think the legion would gain control over the Hoover Dam.
In my oppinion that's abit far from plausible.

While they have the numbers, they also have a very big problem that could compromise their succes in future military campaigns: their soldiers are forced to act as they do. They fear the wrath of Caesar (Lanius really XD), and thus they try to act following his will so they aren't punished (by Lanius throwing them off a cliff) . They don't follow morals or feelings, they are just moved by fear.

Instead, the NCR has its list of ideals and even if they don't acomplish them all, their soldiers believe in something they are willing to fight for: expand the democratic ideals of the Repuiblic, protect and help people, rebuild society, etc. In Caesar's Legion, the only ones who share any kind of ideals are Caesar himself and maybe his legate.

Some of you may think this can't make a difference, but when you have a reason to fight for, you give everything you have. You can be badly injured, exhausted, almost dead, but you still try to give anything you can, because you know you're fighting for something greater than you. (And you hate those ridiculous puppets dressed on sports attire ,c'mon)

The soldiers in Caesar's Legion may seam well trained and fearless, and from what's depicted in New Vegas, they are trained to die when they cannot win. Looks like they're more dangerous than any NCR trooper, only for that. In my oppinion, although soldiers are expected to follow orders automatically like machines, they also need to have some level of free thinking (and legionaries lack a lot of brain).

There's also the fact that they've been recruited, forcely absorbed into the legion when their people were massacred, their home destroyed, their tribe absorbed into the legion. Want it or not, that creats a reject feeling, that can be hidden behind all that Legion training and brainwashing, but doesn't dissapear.

From a tactical point of view, NCR has superior firepower and orginization. Also, I think Benny or Mr House would've used their Securitrons to help fight the legion back. It's not likely that they'll allow the legion to gain the Dam. If they can aslo update the securitrons and activate the securitron army in The Fort by somehow infiltrating Ceaser's camp, the Legion is doomed.

If you want to learn more about it there's a Shoddycast video covering the long term effects and outcome of the Legion/NCR conflict:

You'll find the key fact that support the idea of a victorious NCR. Note that you can apply them, whether the courier intervines or not.

PS: There's also this little aspect of Ulysses' nukes... Nothing important, right? I don't know how that would've turned up, and i'm not fresh in the DLC's story, so please forgive me.

I would say the Legion would prove to be the victor. Keep in mind they are fighting a weak NCR, whereas the legion are nowhere near their peak. The courier interrupts this rise and strengthens the NCR. It is my honest opinion that the NCR would be destroyed without the help of the courier, and left as prey to hopelessly fend off a powerful legion.

Well, the NCR though few in numbers and weak can and might be able to hold off the initial Legion attack but eventually they will be overrun and killed since the Legion had the numbers. Numbers do not always win battles, but without the Courier helping the NCR with no Boomer support or a peace treaty with the Brotherhood of Steel, the NCR are doomed. So aye, the Legion would have won without the Courier coming in to aid them.

I place my caps on NCR. You ask why?

Because of military strategy of General Oliver and Chief Hanlon, they will try to outnumber the Legion like they did in First Battle Of Hoover Dam. If the NCR try to take peace treaty with BoS and giving to NCR aid of Boomers, they would kick Legion ass far away east.
The moral systems the troops will to fight for Hoover Dam, if the President is still alive they will protect the Dam until they die.
Legion is pro in melee/unarmed combat, but they lack in firearms and explovses, so NCR troopers will throw Legion by grenades.

So the moral and strategy play they part in many battles. So don't tell that the Legion is badass and kick NCR back West.

The soldiers on the Legion dont all fight just because they are scare of Lanuis. They worship Caesar almost as a god. The soldiers are very well trained. NCR just got basic trainning and are send to Nevada. Only the pretorian guard has a tradition of fighting with melee weapons the others try to imitate them, so they can use fireweapons as we saw in-game.
Without the courier there is no Boomers, Enclave or BoS to help the NCR. No way Benny(or House) could access the Lucky 38 or the Fort.
Lanius as we are told by Lucius can see traps and make his owns. He is totally different from Joshua Graham.

@WAREZ of course they worship Caesar, but if he die without Courier help, they will try take the Dam as tribute for Caesar. And they will as always fail, just like all the tyrants.
They use firearms, just as secondary weapon, not a primary weapon.
You forgot about Rangers that they could kill entire Legion squad or platoon. So i can say that - I Will Always Place My Caps On The NCR. Just. Because. They. Are. Good.
(Don't mention please, the Pax Romana ideology in NV Caesar seeing)

Yeah I agree that would happen if he die before the battle. But if he attack before is a win for sure.

@"Fuster" They would most likely win due to the NCR having so many issues in the Mojave. The Legion was even able to place an agent into one of the NCR's most crucial military bases. Without the help of the courier the railway to the Strip would be destroyed and the agent would most likely still be at large. The reason why the legion has a higher chance of winning the battle of Hoover Dam is because they don't face as many problems as the NCR in the Mojave. The only real problem the legion actually faces is the NCR itself. Otherwise, the legion doesn't face too many problems with other major or minor factions in the Mojave.

I think the ncr would have won the battle unless mr house got the chip back or if benny waited until the war was over to go to fortification hill because I don't think he would have made it into the legions camp with them still in it