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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:34 pm
Now not long ago someone made a topic called NCR Rangers Vs. Metro Spartan Rangers.
So i thought why not make one regarding the discussion of the Metro Red Line Vs. The NCR Army.
Let me say first what i think.
Overview:
NCR Army
Now the weapons & Equipment of the NCR Army, specifically the NCR Troopers, is the following.
Service rifle or Varmint rifle 9mm submachine gun Hunting rifle Caravan shotgun Frag grenade 9mm pistol or 10mm pistol and Combat knife or Knife
Now where do we start, lets just say that if this is the main equipment for the majority of the Troopers, then i can just say that it is shit..... How are you going to win the war if you arm the majority of your Troopers with some crappy Varmaint Rifle? And as it says on the Wiki.
Quote :
The NCR's most experienced soldiers are being killed daily, leaving naught but recruits rushed out of training into battle. As a result, the NCR is forced to deal with sagging morale and daily reductions in their troop strength.
As you can see, the main reason that so many NCR Troopers die is because the majority of them are recruits, plus given the crappy equipment, they don't stand a chance out in the field.
Now the armors, the standard issue armor for the NCR Trooper is. NCR armor and trooper helmet or goggles helmet or combat helmet.
As it says on the Wiki.
Quote :
The standard NCR trooper's uniform is one of the several variants of NCR armor. Composed of a khaki tunic with bellowed hip pockets and khaki breeches, worn with a desert facewrap and hardened leather pauldrons, black leather fingerless gloves, arm wraps, brown boots and khaki puttees. The uniform was designed to resist the rigors of the desert and long campaigns.
The main protection provided by their uniform comes from the thick leather breastplate that covers the torso and the layers of fabric over the arms and legs. Their armor is robust enough to withstand knife strikes and small-caliber firearms.
I guess it is an okay armor set for the Troopers, but since they have no bulletproof vests or Helmets, excluding the Combat Helmet, they are all going to go down like rabbits.
The Red Line
Now the Red Line has much better weapons and equipment utilizing AK47's, AK74's, Shamblers, for the lower tier the weapons consist of the Bastard carbine,
Metro Wiki wrote:
It's got poor accuracy and overheats like hell-That's why they call it a "Bastard gun
The lower tier Troopers are armed with the Bastard carbine and a single magazine (which is also their conscription payment) and an non-protective cloth uniform. This is because these soldiers are used as cannon fodder by their commanders as a human wall for protecting emplacements during the major combat with the Fourth Reich, often being slaughtered with ease by the more superior Nazi soldiers.
But this is where things get more interesting, the more experienced Red Line troopers are like i said equipped with AK47's, AK74's, Shamblers and even Night Vision Goggles, it could be assumed that they are either officers/squad commanders, or elite units either on par with Nazi soldiers or even better, to be sent to battle when conscripts are not effective or low in numbers.
Here are some pics.
Spoiler:
As we can also see, the Red Line soldiers have Altyn helmets, which is a Soviet GRU Bulletproof Helmet, in the fifth pic we can see the Red Line Officer utilizing an NBC Suit, and the soldier wearing an Altyn Helmet along side a Gas Mask.
And the final part i have to say is By 2034, the Red Army appears to have been developed greatly, with a larger number of soldiers featuring equipment and training on par with other factions such as the Reich.
Their weapons often have attachments such as laser sights and optics, they also have a high number of Heavy Armored Suits, plus a considerable number of soldiers with CBRN suits in areas where they have deployed biological weapons.
They also have gear that is similar to those used by the Rangers, which includes nearly identical body armor and heavily modified high-level weaponry.
They even employ soldiers with Ballistic Shields Flamethrowers Gatling Guns Improvised Tanks and an armored train to back up their offensive.
Some last pics to show.
Spoiler:
Result = Red Line wins, being the fact that they have better weapons and equipment, they could wipe the floor with the NCR Troopers.
So, what are your opinions and what do you have to say? Who would win in a battle? NCR Army or The Red Line?
Posts : 140 Join date : 2015-09-09 Age : 24 Location : Sanford, Maine
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:19 pm
The NCR would win because DEMOCRACY IS NOT NEGOTIABLE ps. I made the NCR ranger vs. Metro Ranger BOS VS RED LINE Liberty Prime would be a challenge for The Red Line's usually superior equipment and keep up the awesome posts btw
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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:56 pm
Lillandoniril wrote:
The NCR would win because DEMOCRACY IS NOT NEGOTIABLE ps. I made the NCR ranger vs. Metro Ranger BOS VS RED LINE Liberty Prime would be a challenge for The Red Line's usually superior equipment and keep up the awesome posts btw
I know you made it, that's why i mentioned someone made that topic.
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:22 am
At first, let me write that I'm no expert on Metro Lore. I started Metro 2033 (both the book and the game), watched most of the second game and that's about it. I know way more about Fallout/the NCR, but still not everything.
Anyway, I think it all depends on the battlefield and on how many people we're talking about. Obviously the NCR would be at a huge disadvantage in the Metro tunnels, since they've never been there before. Since only Veteran Rangers seem to be having some kind of Night Vision, they'd have to get themselves either torches or flashlights.
If the battlefield is in the Mojave, the NCR is at a huge advantage. They can use all their vehicles (armored cars, vertibirds, possibly tanks, etc.) and would have a much easier time trying to attack the enemy. Even if they don't know the territory, they can at least see their enemies.
The NCR have their cannon-fodder troopers, their Rangers and Veteran Rangers, heavy Power Armor troops and vehicles all around. If we're putting all of the Red Line vs all of the NCR, the NCR is most certainly at a higher number. And unless they're fighting in the Metro tunnels, the NCR can use a wider variety of much more effective vehicles.
Then again, the Red Line has a big advantage equipment-wise. They have better weapons and armor and better trained soldiers. The NCR has access to a lot of better technology (Laser and Plasma Weapons, Power Armor, Fatmen, etc.) but usually don't use it.
Results: If they fight in the Metro, the Red Line would win. They seem to have their better equipment more widely distibuted and can use all of their vehicles. The NCR don't know anything about the metro, anyone but the Veteran Rangers will have a very hard time at navigating and they get beaten/forced to retread, but with their heavy troopers and Rangers they'd take out a big chunk of the Red Line.
If they fight above the ground, the NCR would probably win, but lose huge numbers to the Red Line. The NCR could actually see their enemy, they could use vehicles and vertibirds and beat the Red Line by sheer numbers alone. The Red Line would be restricted, since they don't usually fight above ground and can't use any of the vehicles I know of. Even if they could, the NCR would probably still win.
I vote NCR.
PS: BoS vs Red Line? BoS, definitely. Liberty (Prime) is strong enough to kill and stand against everything short of a nuclear strike from space. His laser kills literaly anything in one shot.
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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:18 am
zoro4661 wrote:
At first, let me write that I'm no expert on Metro Lore. I started Metro 2033 (both the book and the game), watched most of the second game and that's about it. I know way more about Fallout/the NCR, but still not everything.
Anyway, I think it all depends on the battlefield and on how many people we're talking about. Obviously the NCR would be at a huge disadvantage in the Metro tunnels, since they've never been there before. Since only Veteran Rangers seem to be having some kind of Night Vision, they'd have to get themselves either torches or flashlights.
If the battlefield is in the Mojave, the NCR is at a huge advantage. They can use all their vehicles (armored cars, vertibirds, possibly tanks, etc.) and would have a much easier time trying to attack the enemy. Even if they don't know the territory, they can at least see their enemies.
The NCR have their cannon-fodder troopers, their Rangers and Veteran Rangers, heavy Power Armor troops and vehicles all around. If we're putting all of the Red Line vs all of the NCR, the NCR is most certainly at a higher number. And unless they're fighting in the Metro tunnels, the NCR can use a wider variety of much more effective vehicles.
Then again, the Red Line has a big advantage equipment-wise. They have better weapons and armor and better trained soldiers. The NCR has access to a lot of better technology (Laser and Plasma Weapons, Power Armor, Fatmen, etc.) but usually don't use it.
Results: If they fight in the Metro, the Red Line would win. They seem to have their better equipment more widely distibuted and can use all of their vehicles. The NCR don't know anything about the metro, anyone but the Veteran Rangers will have a very hard time at navigating and they get beaten/forced to retread, but with their heavy troopers and Rangers they'd take out a big chunk of the Red Line.
If they fight above the ground, the NCR would probably win, but lose huge numbers to the Red Line. The NCR could actually see their enemy, they could use vehicles and vertibirds and beat the Red Line by sheer numbers alone. The Red Line would be restricted, since they don't usually fight above ground and can't use any of the vehicles I know of. Even if they could, the NCR would probably still win.
I vote NCR.
PS: BoS vs Red Line? BoS, definitely. Liberty (Prime) is strong enough to kill and stand against everything short of a nuclear strike from space. His laser kills literaly anything in one shot.
From what i know the NCR doesn't own any tanks, neither do they own any armored cars, and the vertibirds are only made for the President and used for escorting and not fighting, so lets take that out of the way.
Now the NCR heavy trooper, their standard armor is Salvaged Power Armor, which bassically means that it is a potato.
Click Me. :
Their standard weapons is a Light machine gun or Heavy incinerator or Minigun or Hunting shotgun and Super sledge
Good equipment, but what does it matter if they are going to go down in a couple of minutes with that salvaged power armor?
Now the NCR Rangers, as my good old friend @Aceofsnakes said.
Aceofsnakes wrote:
The NCR Rangers rock standard issue LAPD Riot Control gear, trenchcoats, and hydration bladders. Let me say first that contrary to popular belief, even with a light amount of kevlar, Riot Control armor is ABSOLUTELY NOT tank armor. It is meant for RIOTs. Not HOSTILE FORCE ENCOUNTERS. Riots include blunt objects and at worst, small caliber firearms. Anything above a 9mm and you're just about dead, bruh. And even if your armor stops the projectile, the kinetic force of that round is knocking you on your ass. It's light and maneuverable, but it's pretty redundant in a wasteland scenario for a DIRECT ACTION group. The Ranger Combat Armor is a step above, and will deal significantly more protection for a Ranger. It's too bad the Elites haven't learned that. As for their Helmet, the night vision isn't anything that can't be achieved by conventional NVGs, and the red NVGs makes no sense from a realistic standpoint. But from a Lore-standpoint, it works. I guess. Regardless, that helmet is thin enough that any ballistic impact will give you a concussion, no arguments. At most, you're looking at protection from debris and shrapnel, and enhanced senses. Nothing more, nothing less.
As for recognizability, since half the battle is not shooting your own guys, the NCR Rangers are dressed in jeans and trenchcoats, with glowing red eyes. For Camo sakes, they stick out like a sore thumb and will be a target for snipers. For their own sakes, they are easily recognized by teammates and friendly fire isn't an issue. But skinny jeans aren't combat clothes, so they will be hindered. Not to mention the trench coat hindering movement as well. (Good god Obsidian, did you have /any/ military consultants on your team?) Let's not forget the horrendous lack of pouches for ammunition storage, so that's a down as well.
Then again that is your opinion, but here is just my opinion on why the NCR Army would lose against the Red Line.
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:14 am
Damn, you just kicked my ass with arguments.
The part about the tanks was pure speculation on my part, since I remember reading it at one point (hence the "possibly") and my internet is too slow for Googling (it does work, but it takes way too long). Thanks for the info.
As for vehicles, aren't there trucks in Camp McCarran?
from the Fallout Wiki:
Air Force The NCR has limited airpower, possessing a fleet of captured Vertibirds for special missions, with at least one Vertibird named "Bear Force One" reserved as the president's personal vehicle. While the NCR has fixed-wing aircraft in its possession and access to numerous airfields, it is unknown how many planes are operable and whether they yet possess the ability to reproduce them.
Mechanized division The New California Republic has a mechanized vehicle division. However, the exact number and the type of vehicles in the division is unknown. The logistics corps employ several scavenged US Army trucks for transport. These are kept running by a dedicated team of mechanics and well-stocked workshops, such as the truck repair depot at Camp McCarran.
Previous Fallout games (and the Fallout Bible as far as I know) also state that there are cars. To quote reddit users Kastera1000 and Fallout2isthebest:
Kastera1000 wrote:
According to Fallout Bible 5, "NCR is rumored to have a mechanized vehicle division outside of its farming vehicles, but the number of vehicles in the division is unknown."
Fallout2isthebest wrote:
Theres a guy outside of Shady Sands in Fallout 2 who watches cars, as well as a car repair guy. If there were no cars in the NCR both jobs would be pointless.
Also, how does Salvaged Power Armor = Potato? Isn't the SPA, lore-wise at least, pretty good armor?
As for the rest, you got me. What about the whole "advantage in numbers" thing, though? Couldn't the NCR just throw people at the Red Line 'till it's gone? It's what they've done against the BoS and Enclave (as far as I know), so why wouldn't it work against the Red Line?
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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:51 am
Well, since you didn't play the last level of the Metro game then i suggest you watch this, even though the Red Line lost they caused massive damage to the Rangers and D6, almost wiping all of them out except for Miller and Artyom, and if you see near the end, then you can see the equipment and the amount of Troops the Red Line and they also used the old Spartan army shield tactic right here. If the NCR was to defend D6, how long do you reckon they could hold onto? Plus forgot to mention that the Reds were also fighting at the Reich side, so if they took all of those troops and moved to D6 and focused on the NCR, then imagine the damage?
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:38 pm
Nah, I saw the endings of Last Light (a while ago). Are there any actualy numbers on either faction, though? I can only guess that the NCR is big enough to hold their huge-ass territory, and the Red Line apparently occupies a big part of Russia's Metros, but how many are they exactly?
I agree, in the Metro the Red Line would win. They'd lose people, but they'd win. But what if they fight in the Mojave? Let's say they fight in Camp McCarran. Do you think the NCR'd have better chances?
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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:55 pm
Well think about it, in the game you could hear Comrade Korbut talk about how he found weak points and lightly guarded entrances, if he did that with D6, he could surely do the same with Camp Mccarran, also he used an event as a distraction, while all the Spartans were at the peace confrence in Polis, the Reds striked at that exact time, they would do the same with Camp Mccarran, plus they are not some raider idiots who would go in the front entrance, they have slepper agents, sniper units, they are more smarter than the NCR thinks they are.
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:58 pm
Uhm well this sounds like actual fun. Let me try :s Despite the fact that it is very unliekly/just not possible that these factions would meet,there are roughly 250 years inbetween the Metro series timeline and Fallout timeline.(if I remember correct,I might be wrong correct me if so). But with this out the way,one should also consider the lore of the two games. Fallout series wasteland is not nearly as harsh as the Metro wasteland is,in the metro wasteland life outside the metro is bearly possible,you need a gas mask as the air is still contaminated and mutants are a serious threat. And again,if I remember correct,the NCR is not the high end faction most people belive they are. Deserters,Poorly trained troops (like the squad you meet near Lake las Vegas) and whole fortified camps running short on supplies&gear and equiped only with Caravan Shotguns. Meh. True to Caesar I guess. The line on the other hand isn't perfect either,but common,they have a (Train)TANK. A TANK.
But if it would come to a war with the NCR,I guess the NCR could not survive another war.The legion already gave them a punch to the face.A good amount of NCR soldiers would just crack up morally.Getting send to fight another army and probably get even more losses would break the NCR up.It would be just to much pressure,at the end they are only human,not war robots without emotions and morals.
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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:06 pm
@snowglobecollector also do not forget that they Ballistic Shields, Flamethrowers, Gatling Guns, Heavy Armored Suits and even NBC suits.
Posts : 523 Join date : 2014-11-23 Age : 25 Location : Arizona
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:51 pm
It appears as though I was summoned. Alrighty, let's look at this.
For a quick summary: The NCR, fighting against a trained, modern military of sorts, will not stand a chance. They lack the fundamental training, strategy, and equipment to be able to do so. For instance, they are fighting a tribal force which according to lore, barely ever has access to decent firearms. Most of the Legion's ground forces are tribesmen with machetes and football pads, nothing more. The NCR has equipped most, if not all of its soldiers, with a Service Rifle or equivalent. There is no reason the NCR should be taking as much losses as it is against this foe - it's bad strategy.
The Red Line, in Metro, is a fierce military faction and it does battle frequently with the Reich. The Reich relies on smaller groups of superior trained soldiers, where as the Red Line relies on waves of conscripts with elites backing them up. In common, we see barely trained soldiers on the front line, with veterans backing them up further down. As seen above, they are well within their means to overrun an elite military faction with superior weapons and equipment. Let that sink in. They overran and were on the verge of annihilating the D6 Rangers, entirely, and gaining control of the Metro.
I'm seeing the location being brought up quite frequently. In reality, it's not gonna matter much. The NCR has fortified areas very similar to what the Red Line would expect. HELIOS ONE for example, is very similar to the D6 site. Paired with the large amount of Railroad Tracks in the NV Wasteland, that spells doom for NCR forces lacking any Anti Armor means. And many do, since the NCR does not need to worry about armored opponents. Armored as in Tank, not power armor. It's not invincible but it'll wipe out a large chunk of NCR's force.
And, let us not forget that if hte NCR has trouble fighting conscripts with machetes and NO training, what'll they do with conscripts who've lived in a hostile metro their entire lives and actually have decent firearms? Because let's not forget as well, that the Bastard Carbine uses 5.45x45mm ammunition. And that at the very least, Red Line can give kevlar to its soldiers, and while it may not be much at all, you're still looking at even the bottom tier of the Red Line utterly annihilating the NCR's bottom tier.
Just some thoughts
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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:00 pm
@AceofSnakes haha man, i kind of summonded you since i tagged you.
That right there is an amazing point of view, well done, +1 from me.
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:59 am
If Brotherhood of steel lost to NCR's superior numbers, i honestly do not see how the Red Line would have any better luck. So, at least on open ground, NCR would take it, but with higher casualties.
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GenericRifleman
Posts : 523 Join date : 2014-11-23 Age : 25 Location : Arizona
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:06 am
Finnisher wrote:
If Brotherhood of steel lost to NCR's superior numbers, i honestly do not see how the Red Line would have any better luck. So, at least on open ground, NCR would take it, but with higher casualties.
Well, the Brotherhood lost because they were a much, much smaller group. And even then, they weren't completely decimated. That and the brotherhood did deal a major blow to NCR's forces. The only reason they really had to retreat was because they weren't equipped to take on such a large group. If the NCR truly had such an advantage, they would've trailed them to their bunkers and finished them there.
In fact, had the Red Line put up a defense at the Helios One, I guarantee the NCR wouldn't have taken it.
Finnisher
Posts : 62 Join date : 2014-11-25 Age : 27
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:32 am
AceofSnakes wrote:
Finnisher wrote:
If Brotherhood of steel lost to NCR's superior numbers, i honestly do not see how the Red Line would have any better luck. So, at least on open ground, NCR would take it, but with higher casualties.
Well, the Brotherhood lost because they were a much, much smaller group. And even then, they weren't completely decimated. That and the brotherhood did deal a major blow to NCR's forces. The only reason they really had to retreat was because they weren't equipped to take on such a large group. If the NCR truly had such an advantage, they would've trailed them to their bunkers and finished them there.
In fact, had the Red Line put up a defense at the Helios One, I guarantee the NCR wouldn't have taken it.
During the beginning of Metro: Last Light, Artyom states that there's 40,000 people living in the Metro. Red Line is only a part of that, likely the biggest party in the metro, but compared to NCR, their numbers are minimal, seeing as the NCR is spread largely on the east coast of US, numbering in hundreds of thousands, supposedly at 700,000.
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VeteranAlpha
Posts : 970 Join date : 2015-04-14 Age : 25 Location : London, United Kingdom
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:56 am
The majority of the NCR Troopers are poorly trainded and have crappy weapons such as a Service Rifle or Varmaint Rifle, while the Red Line has decent weapons and equipment and even has TANKS!! plus think about it, how long would it take the NCR to get backup from California or the East Cost? By that time the Red Line would be able to set up forts, bases, checkpoints, landmines, sniper units, etc: The NCR would have no intel whatsoever regarding the Red Line while the Red Line has tons of Spies and sleeper agents.
Posts : 336 Join date : 2014-03-27 Age : 33 Location : Forge world Mars
Subject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:17 pm
I think the would be to lazy to fight each other .Or maybe a lot of Reds will leave their side to join the NCR or i dunno .There are a lot of possibilities .The Red line has the equipment and the resources but it lacks in manpower .It also has good spyes . Its hard to judge since those are 2 different worlds .If they ever fight there would be a lot of blood. Dont forget there are the Nazis ,The Chee..Bandits ,Independent factions like Polis .It would be a mess. Also dont forget that the Reds obtained some kind of a bio-weapon . The NCR has cannibals ,raiders ,The Legion and other things to fight . So nobody wins ,everybody looses . Unless Uncle Bourbon comes back from the dead and Ulman starts growing shrooms in the whole Metro and nuclear winter comes to NCR .
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