Chinpoko117 wrote:

Yes, a representation. From a certain point of view and on paper it might seem that way if one were to go off their arsenal and the like, but really I found the Enclave in Fallout 3 to be pushovers, perhaps moreso than the Legion in New Vegas. When I encountered them, there was always back up taking on the various forms of Fawkes and his Gatling Laser, freeing Enclave Deathclaws and watching it tear them apart to BoS power armored squads and then there's Liberty Prime which made Project Purity easy from a gameplay perspective. I hardly used my weapon at all during that quest..

They aren't so much pushovers if you play it on hard difficulties. They are harder to defeat in combat one on one and all throughout Fallout 3 they prove to be quite a challenge for the BoS. Liberty Prime gets destroyed in the first quest of Broken Steel, he doesn't get repaired until 10 years later. Also, with Fawkes that's more of a companion imbalance, not to do with the story. Just like Boone is OP in NV and Danse is in 4, Fawkes is in 3. It's just tradition by this point. The Enclave, like I said, wear power armor and shoot plasma weapons, which make them deadly in combat. The Legion however, wear football gear and skirts and use melee weapons which makes them pushovers in game. In the lore however, they are possibly far from pushovers, and are a worthy rival for the NCR with their sheer numbers. That isn't represented in game, but the Enclave being a huge enough force to be crushed in Fallout 2 and still show up in Fallout 3 and rival a BoS chapter is a better representation.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

In New Vegas, I would often get ambushed by entire patrols of Legion boys in the middle of the desert, often alone because I don't always have a companion with me. A few would charge at me with machetes and went down easily enough, but there was always those in the back with brush guns and trail carbines - both of which do a fair amount of damage - and would more often than not kill me given the lack of cover in the vast openness of sand.

The Legion relies on CQC (Close Quarters Combat) because the melee weapons that they use aren't ideal for long distances. Hypothetically, if the Legion were realistic, they would utilize their surroundings to take cover from nearby gunfire, but that's the point. They don't. Although you could blame the poor training they receive as reason why their cannon fodder, they don't match a NCR Trooper's training being that the NCR are an actual military force. In short, the Legion have worse training, worse weapons and armor than the NCR but win because of sheer numbers. I don't think that's realistic at all. It requires more than just luck and numbers to oust trained forces with firearms, and the Legion don't show any signs of using stealth often to take the opposition by surprise. The Enclave use cover and use power armor to prove a challenge for the protagonist, and thus makes them much more difficult to defeat. The Enclave in Fallout 3 are believable to be the same Enclave from it's lore, the Legion and FNV's lore are just hard to imagine defeating a force that topples them easily in game, the NCR. In my opinion it just seemed like Obsidian wanted the NCR to have a difficult enemy in the lore without implementing that enemy in such a way it's believable that they are winning the battle. The BoS and Enclave are fair matches both in lore and gameplay is what I'm trying to say, but in New Vegas the NCR are getting weakened day by day fighting the Legion in lore but in gameplay it doesn't seem that way at all. X-02 PA and Plasma weapons do way more to protect Enclave troops than a trail carbine and football gear does with the Legion, and that's just a fact.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

The Legion could of been better in-game, it should of been better, but Obsidian just didn't have the time. Some say it is because Bethesda didn't want New Vegas to interfere with Skyrim's 2011 release and had it be released in 2010 instead. Plausible but unlikely, but could be true from a business outlook. Sounds more like a Zenimax move.

And so we should judge how long it took in development rather than what was actually put out? FNV did have a short time period in development but that doesn't grant it immunity from all criticism, neither does it because they are Obsidian either. Just look at Alpha Protocol and how much of a flop that was. If Obsidian are due for an early release date, they should aim to accomplish as much as they can before that release date. If it's unfinished, we should still be able to judge it for that, just like how Fallout 3, 4 and Skyrim were pretty much unfinished too. Fallout 3 and 4's story felt short and Skyrim's story was predictable and agonizingly poorly written.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

As for being an errand boy, really that's almost in every Fallout game. In Fallout 1 Vault 13 needs you to fetch a water purifier, and then the Brotherhood of Steel needs you to stop the Master. In Fallout 2 your tribe needs you to fetch a GECK, and eventually stop the Enclave. Even Fallout 3 has the Lone Wanderer as an errand boy, both the Brotherhood and the Enclave need you for Project Purity since you know the code. And in New Vegas all the factions, especially Yes Man, need you to win Hoover Dam. Likewise in Fallout 4 regarding its factions and the Institute.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the Eastern BoS aren't fairly matched with the Enclave. With all the other games it feels like there's urgency to it, and for better or for worse, I'm not a fan of that urgency. Sadly, most of Fallout 3's main quests do exhibit the urgency that I hated about NV and 4. The good part at least about 3 is that I'm not rushing to save the BoS from it's impending doom. It's perfectly sustainable on it's own. According to the lore the NCR are getting weaker day by day and so it feels unrealistic to wait months in game before doing the NCR quests. The BoS however aren't exactly rushed into battle with the Enclave and vice versa. It's sort of like a cold war between the BoS and Enclave. They stay out of each other's way mostly because they are afraid of each other but on certain locations (like Project Purity) tensions rise and they are forced to fight each over up until one of them come out the victor. With the NCR vs Legion, the war is already on and I feel as if I have to rush to save it or assist the Legion.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

Guns are common enough, I get shot at by them just as often as I would a spear thrown or melee weapons being charged. Could be because my game is modded and changes the leveled lists, but nonetheless I see them fairly often in Legion squads. The first tribe Caesar conquered he trained to use firearms and how to make improvised explosives. It's a mixed bunch in lore, some tribes used guns like the White Legs and their 12.7mm SMGs or the Blackfoots and whichever model of guns they used. Some tribes such as the HangDogs were even using animals as weapons, likely explaining the fair amount of Legion Mongrels.

In my experience of the game it's rare for me to find Legionaires that use firearms against me. I do occasionally but the majority I find use melee weapons, which makes me question how they are such an opponent to the NCR. You could say numbers, but the Legionaries don't show as great of military training as the NCR both in lore and in game, so it's like a group of primitive savages driving out a well-armed military force with many victories under their belt. The NCR defeated the BoS at Helios One by numbers and it was believable for them to do so being that they're well-matched. If the Legionaries tried to defeat the BoS they would get destroyed both in lore and in-game, so I don't see how the Legion can defeat the NCR.

Somehow it reminds me of Return Of The Jedi and how the Ewoks were able to defeat the Stormtroopers in the Battle of Endor. In the movie, it doesn't seem very believable, but in Star Wars lore it makes more sense, and this is one of my main gripes with Return of the Jedi. They didn't present that well, and it is also one of my main gripes with Fallout New Vegas and even with Fallout 4.

@Corvo

Same argument can be applied to most games if you play on more difficult game modes. The Legion ARE formidable, even if they don't look it. This is even referenced in game by the Brotherhood of Steel that was observing Camp Forlon Hope. The Knight thought for sure the technologically superior NCR would curbstomp Legion raiding parties, but to his surprise it always ended in a standstill. You can even witness this in-game where, periodically, skirmishes from both sides are sent out back and forth between Nelson and Forlon Hope, only stopping if you help the NCR take back Nelson.

I understand your point from a visual perspective -- men in football gear with machetes and lever action guns compared to power armored mooks and plasma guns can make the latter seem more better represented. I too thought the Legion looked goofy in canon. They are still a fleshed out faction at the very least and as far as plot and lore goes, they are better represented imo.

The world in Fallout 3, while fun to explore, just doesn't feel alive. The urgency in the classics, while annoying at times, felt like the world is alive. The BoS might feel self sustainable and they are lorewise, but really what do they do in the game other than shooting at orcs with guns and maybe the occasional, easily dispatched of Enclave Vertibird that sometimes get shot down before their troops even get out.

Actions don't feel like they have the consequences they should have. Blow up Megaton? That's bad and you should feel bad and that's as far as how the gameworld pretty much treats it. This problem of Bethesda can be found in their other games like, say, Skyrim. You're the Dragonborn and just saved the world from being eaten by a soul devouring dragon but the world doesn't really feel like that. Nor does the Civil War, sad a mod that is unfortunately no longer available had to rectify this.

Also I never never said it grants Obsidian immunity, just pointing out the simple fact their short time frame did not allow them to flesh out the Legion like they intended. IIRC Out of all the factions Obsidian worked on the Legion last and it shows. Nonetheless fair play to them because they made a fantastic game with the time they had. But in a way yeah, it can be applied to games like Skyrim, which wanted that 11/11/11 deadline. An example is the Imperial Legion is suppose to be diverse than more than just Imps and Nords, they were suppose to feature a variety of races that were never in the game which a mod, once again, had to fix. Literally fix because it was all in the game files and a small box tick prevented them from appearing in the game.

Bethesda's writing department reminds me of this Harrison Ford quote about George Lucas, "You can write this George but you can't say it."

And speaking of Star Wars, No argument that RoTJ is the weakest. Lucas wanted Ewoks to sell toys to children while the script had Wookies. I would preferred seeing seven to eight foot tall Wookies tear stormies a new one than seeing them be beaten to death by rocks and sticks wielded by a bunch of teddy bears. A much more believable scenario.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

Same argument can be applied to most games if you play on more difficult game modes. The Legion ARE formidable, even if they don't look it. This is even referenced in game by the Brotherhood of Steel that was observing Camp Forlon Hope. The Knight thought for sure the technologically superior NCR would curbstomp Legion raiding parties, but to his surprise it always ended in a standstill. You can even witness this in-game where, periodically, skirmishes from both sides are sent out back and forth between Nelson and Forlon Hope, only stopping if you help the NCR take back Nelson.

The Legion in gameplay nearly always get defeated by the NCR with the exception of those rare scripted scenes and dialogue, especially when there is the same number of NCR Troops in the vicinity as the are Legionaries. The entire reason Legionaries don't get curbstomped to the extent of radroaches in gameplay is due to low numbers of NCR troops, close quarter combat (which is the Legion and their melee weapons are most effective in) or because of the AI. The Legion have to rely on speed to chop up NCR troops before they get a clear shot, although it doesn't matter in the vanilla game too much being the player and enemies survive shots to major organs and survive unscathed, but in reality, a force like the Legion that is diplomatically superior yet against forces that wield firearms that are pretty much one-shot kills most of the time in real life, I'm going to say that the Legion could've been much more of a believable force in gameplay if they used firearms more often and tried less to recreate the past Roman Empire entirely and instead tried to renew it, bringing firearms into the Legion. The Roman Empire used more often than not what they could create and get their hands on, while despite the NV Legion having those weapons like you said, not a lot of soldiers actually use them and IIRC they are given to higher ranking legionaires rather than the main infantry force.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

I understand your point from a visual perspective -- men in football gear with machetes and lever action guns compared to power armored mooks and plasma guns can make the latter seem more better represented. I too thought the Legion looked goofy in canon. They are still a fleshed out faction at the very least and as far as plot and lore goes, they are better represented imo.

How so? Although true, I do find it interesting how you criticize Fallout 3 for having black and white factions yet not look at how Caesar's Legion are clearly there to be moustache twirling villains. Caesar's Legion could've been so much more, yet they are morally bankrupt and the only real reason to side with them is for roleplaying as the bad guy. Granted this is true for Fallout 3's endings too, but I don't think NV should be excused of it. At least Skyrim and Fallout 4 tried to make the factions morally ambiguous and open to interpretation. Caesar is a human sleeping pill and the other legionaries are brainwashed robots with no major dissenting beliefs against Caesar. IIRC in Ancient Rome, there were those that rebelled against it because it destroyed their cultures and imposed Roman culture on them while simplifying the native culture down and extracting elements from it to fit into Roman culture. Surely there would be rebels in Caesar's Legion, and surely this would weaken them, but of course, this is not represented in New Vegas because reasons...? The Enclave however in Fallout 3 are not as fleshed out but mostly because they aren't in many quests at all. The only time in Fallout 3 you see the Enclave from the inside of Raven Rock is in The American Dream, which is for a short time and thus it would be a waste of time to flesh out some ordinary joe. The Legion's characters although despite being more fleshed out in comparison, still fall short in comparison to other factions that Obsidian wrote, like the NCR, Boomers or Followers of the apocalypse, which I must say were written excellently compared to the Legion. The only difference here is that the Legion is a main storyline faction that you can side with and not a sidequest faction or a faction that the NCR go tell you to help for 75% of it's questline.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

The world in Fallout 3, while fun to explore, just doesn't feel alive. The urgency in the classics, while annoying at times, felt like the world is alive. The BoS might feel self sustainable and they are lorewise, but really what do they do in the game other than shooting at orcs with guns and maybe the occasional, easily dispatched of Enclave Vertibird that sometimes get shot down before their troops even get out.

Personally, although it might be because I like TES more than I do Fallout, despise the urgency in Fallout games. It makes the game feel like it's cornering me and telling me what to do when I just want to explore. Maybe I don't want to hunt for post-apocalyptic Chandler Bing or find my long lost son/father Neeson. Bethesda and Obsidian really should just place your character in an NCR prison or something and have you break out.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

Actions don't feel like they have the consequences they should have. Blow up Megaton? That's bad and you should feel bad and that's as far as how the gameworld pretty much treats it. This problem of Bethesda can be found in their other games like, say, Skyrim. You're the Dragonborn and just saved the world from being eaten by a soul devouring dragon but the world doesn't really feel like that. Nor does the Civil War, sad a mod that is unfortunately no longer available had to rectify this.

Would you say Megaton was comparable to Lonesome Road's missiles at the ending? Targetting Dry Wells or the Long 15 doesn't really matter in the long run does it? That's bad and you should feel bad. What about the decision where you side with the Powder Gangers at Goodsprings? What's the reasoning behind that? Are we making exceptions now for Fallout NV but deliberately targeting 3?

I much rathered Skyrim's civil war than New Vegas and it's strange layout of questlines. There are short questlines for each faction in New Vegas except for the main factions in that case those are halved and the player is told to go improve their reputation with the other factions. There's not many true faction quests in New Vegas apart from those in which you go and sweet talk the Boomers or the BoS to support your faction. At least in Skyrim I felt like I was a true legionaire/stormcloak champion and was fighting for them and not just their messenger boy.

Also may I point out that Skyrim's Civil war is not the MAIN questline. It's the secondary questline which the player is supposed to pursue after completing his role as Dovahkiin and slaying Alduin.

Chinpoko117 wrote:

Also I never never said it grants Obsidian immunity, just pointing out the simple fact their short time frame did not allow them to flesh out the Legion like they intended. IIRC Out of all the factions Obsidian worked on the Legion last and it shows. Nonetheless fair play to them because they made a fantastic game with the time they had. But in a way yeah, it can be applied to games like Skyrim, which wanted that 11/11/11 deadline. An example is the Imperial Legion is suppose to be diverse than more than just Imps and Nords, they were suppose to feature a variety of races that were never in the game which a mod, once again, had to fix. Literally fix because it was all in the game files and a small box tick prevented them from appearing in the game.

All it shows was that Obsidian should've spent less time on fleshing out and creating silly minor storylines like the Boomers and more time actually focusing on their main storyline's factions. Maybe Bethesda should have spent more time expanding on the Republic Of Dave than the main storyline, because when it boils down to it, the main questline is what is going to stand out the most to the player.

The Imperial Legion has grown weak and that is a main theme of Skyrim. They no longer control Hammerfell or High Rock, and Morrowind and the other provinces of Tamriel are fighting on their own against the Thalmor or are being controlled by them. I think it's fair to say that there will be mostly Nords and Imperials fighting for the Empire as Skyrim and Cyrodiil are the only provinces controlled by the Legion at the time of Skyrim's events. Nords are the majority race in Skyrim, and the Stormcloak rebellion shows it. How a small rebellion can rival the Empire even on it's last legs is proof of how Nords are the majority race. So it's fair to say that the Legion would mostly consist of Nords and Imperials being that Skyrim's majority races are Nords and the Legion stems from Cydrodiil which is home to Imperials. I think you missed the whole point of Skyrim's civil war. The majority Nord race of Skyrim believe that their culture and tradition is being taken away by the Imperials, who are a shell of their former selves being controlled by an agreement with the Thalmor, and thus begins the Stormcloak rebellion, but I digress.

@Corvo

They may not be as strong as they used to be, but explain the fact there are non-humans wanting to join the Legion? The Dark Elf that can be seen on the roads saying he is off to Solitude to join the Legion? Why are there only human races in the Legion? It's a civil war, yes, since there are Nords fighting for the Empire, but so are other races. The very least there would be the Dark Elf refugees from Windhelm to possibly join the Legion, the bigotry they put up with certainly wouldn't see them siding with the Stormcloaks.

Caesar's Legion is less black and white than the Enclave. If you talk to the man himself a conversation lasting up to twenty to thirty minutes can be held and he explains his Legion and why he started it. From his childhood in the Follower's Apocalypse, to meeting the Blackfoots Tribe as a young man and crowning himself as Caesar. Saying how in a world like Fallout, a society such as the Roman Empire stood a good chance of surviving and even thriving. And for the most part it was working to an extent, much of Utah, and all of Arizona, Colorado and New Mexico were under the Legion banner. Order was established if not outright enforced, and caravan's were allowed to travel the roads in safety without fear of raiders. That the NCR's internal corruption was its worst enemy, and that would conquer it to hasten up the inevitable, but the change would affect the Legion as well. Turning it from nomadic warriors consisting of tribals to a genuine Empire. That absorbing the NCR would not only eliminate its flaws, but the Legion's as well.

The Enclave is not well executed Fallout 3, plot and gameplay wise. Even when you as the Lone Wanderer encounter the Enclave even when they're in numbers, there's always something else fighting them for you. Even when inside the hornet's nest of Raven Rock, President Eden reprograms all of the robots and sentry turrets to attack Enclave personnel, making it an easy beeline to escape and doubly so if one were to free the Deathclaws.

One of my biggest gripes in Fallout 3 is that you cannot join the Enclave, even after talking with and agreeing to corrupt the water purifier at Jefferson Memorial for President Eden. The Enclave needed more character and characters I felt. There weren't enough you can actually talk to besides Eden and Autumn. One of the few times I felt there were human elements to the Enclave was in Raven Rock's mess hall, where upon looking down through the metal grating floor, one could see assorted silverware that had fallen through and left there.

A problem common in Fallout 3, such as Vault 101 when you leave. All the officers attack you on sight, you don't even have the choice of talking to them. The only real choice you have is what weapon you kill them with, be it a baseball bat, a switchblade or a baton and 10mm pistol.

Compared to Fallout 2 where in order to get into the temple at the start of the game, you have to prove your worth and fight one of the village warriors in unarmed combat. However if you prefer a more pacifist style there is the choice to question why do we have to fight, potentially talking your way out of fighting instead of getting thrown right into combat.

As for New Vegas' flaws, I never denied there were not any. Ignored, maybe, but during such I was mainly discussing Fallout 3. New Vegas I can also pick apart, along with the older games. Such as helping the Legion sabotage Camp Forlorn Hope and its mentioned as being fallen. Except the Legion never take it over and its left with the same respawning NCR scripts. Odd considering Nelson is the opposite, where the NCR can take it over if the Legion is kicked out. Turn a blind eye to the Omertas' scheme yet there is never the mass shootout on the Strip like they plan to. Massacre the Fiends and their leadership in and around Vault 3 but they still spawn en masse through out Westside and close to Camp McCarran.

The Boomers were somewhat excusable, they have ammunition stockpiles both the NCR and the Legion want. The NCR already has artillery weapons, as does the Legion should they be fixed. Even if they were fixed however they were still useless without shells, something the Boomers have that both opposing factions want a piece of.

As for Lonesome Road DLC, you got a point there however nuking them at least gives you the lowest reputation points with either faction and will guarantee to be attacked on sight if encountering faction affiliates still in the Mojave.

Now you can chose not to blow Megaton up or not, this is true. But I don't really feel like the world reacts to it enough compared to the nukes used in Lonesome Road. At the very least there the affected factions are pissed off and want you dead. That still feels more alive than Megaton imo.

Here's a question I've always had. In the Lonesome road DLC, there were two dead NCR Rangers where you could get the amazing Advanced and Elite Riot Armor. So, who were they? Why were they even there? Is there any lore behind these dudes?

I kind of know about how the Courier 6 was responsible for the creation of the Divide, but even then I don't really know.

@ChuBBies1 The Divide is a very unique location that is very "rich" in lore.

Before the Great War The Divide was subjected to experiments conducted by Big Mountain involving meteorology. Based on the results during the events of FNV it is safe to assume that the experiments ended in failure. This also explains the storms and small earthquakes you see in the Divide. 

The Advanced Riot Gear sets you can get in throughout the Divide were originally used by the 11th Armored Calvary Regiment for Riot control. After the war the NCR reused the armors for a similar purpose. 

Originally The Divide started out as a prosperous town kept alive by couriers. The town became so prosperous that the NCR quickly annexed it. The NCR attempted to establish new supply lines through the area and by doing so attracted the attention of Caesar's legion who then attempted to cut the supply lines off. 

War ensued between the NCR and the Legion and under NCR orders a remote detonator of some sort was sent to The Divide with the player character (The Courier) being the one who brought it there. Once the detonator was close enough to establish a signal the ICBM computers detonated the warheads in the silos creating the cracks in the ground as seen during the events of FNV. 

Due to the level of destruction, Legions of soldiers and Battalions of NCR alike were destroyed and the survivors of both sides turned into the marked men you see in FNV. Due to the high winds the survivors skin was torn off exposing their muscle tissue. The unique ghoulification process that the survivors endured is the only reason the marked men survived for so long. The Legion and NCR soldiers united together as one due to the pain both sides endured and both sides attempted to hold on to what they once had turning their hate for each other onto the Divide and its intruders.

@MrEggs0925 Well all right then. That was quite a lot of lore in a quick and informative manner, thank you!

I gotta say that there was a good bit about Lonesome Road that I didn't know about. I had no idea who the 11th Cavalry where along with not really understanding Hopeville entire past. I love the lore in this game, but it feels like Obsidian made a story in the background and acted like you should know what was going on.

@ChuBBies1 Yeah its no problem. And yes it does at times feel like Obsidian just wants you to figure everything out. I'm guessing since it was the last DLC for the game Obsidian figured everyone would of known the lore regarding Ulysses and the big fight they had. I'm guessing Obsidian figured everyone would listen to Ulysses when he talks to you through ED-E for 20 minutes. 

Though looking at this it seems like it is mostly unique to Lonesome Road as you can learn a lot about the lore in Dead Money as terminals and NPC's share a lot of info.

I don't like that Fallout 3 forced you into the brotherhood of steel, I think that seeing as you are presented with other options you should have been able to join the Enclave. I think coming from Fallout 1 and 2 then playing 3 that although they brought the series into the new generation gaming they didn't really keep with the traditional fallout games. Fallout isn't about new and improved graphics and power armor/combat it's about the RPG elements and survival in post apocalyptic America.

Fallout New Vegas was a big step in the right direction probably due to having original developers making it. There was no ending that was truly bad, all the factions have their flaws and are made even more apparent in the DLC content which was amazing. Even as bad as the legion is portrayed, asking people involved with them they say they've made a much safer territory under their control despite their ruthless enslavement of their enemies and mutilations of their enemies. Even with them being obviously not the popular choice the game is still fair and completely subjected to the players choice and view points which is what fallout is about.

Fallout 4 was just garbage in my opinion, the story was trash and there were insanely large plot holes. That's not to say that the engine wasn't amazing because it definitely is, but there's simply not replay value because there's nothing to replay. They drifted from the story and basically trashed it to include settlement building. The DLC's were worthless and not worth the money that people invested then the game contradicts itself in the lore multiple times. They continued with their brotherhood hero crap and that was already overplayed in fallout 3 which it definitely wasn't desired then either.

They haven't grasped the fact that people don't want to be forced to allied with the brotherhood in every fallout game for that matter they don't need to play a major role in every game. Fallout New Vegas captured them perfectly, they're ruthless and only care about tech. Within like 30 minutes of playing FO4 you're already asked to join them just like you're forced to join preston garvey. I understand that power armor is a major staple in the game but just because you want to find a way to include it in the game doesn't mean you have to pull the same crap every game.

Hopefully in Fallout 5 they write the lore that the east coast brotherhood are wiped out in the commonwealth and the institute prevail. Then hopefully an Independent New Vegas with the end being all the factions are nuked and lose the dam. Putting the major factions on a retreat will give chance for others to rise such as the Ashur's Pit Army, The Enclave, maybe a rise of another "Master" type character for supermutants, The Armys of Ronto, many possibilities but it shouldn't be a linear black and white story. Factions should be competing against each other for something or should just have their own agendas that the player can further advance but don't necessarily have to be done similar to the brotherhood in New Vegas. It would also be cool to see some more secretive factions, like maybe the secret vault (although its not lore) with vault tec doing their own experiments and advancing as a hidden faction. There's many possibilities and having the same crappy "good guy" ending for these games keeps them from expanding on their true potential, after all fallout isn't about being the good guy it's about survival.

[quote="Chinpoko117"][quote="Corvo"]@Chinpoko117

Quote :

They stay mostly true to the codex while eliminating the exact problem that doomed the Enclave and will doom the West Coast, that being their stance on outsiders.

I would like to point out then in fallout 3 that Colonel autumns plan was similar to that of the east coast brotherhood. His plan was to start recruiting and using normal wastelanders to rebuild america rather than just massacre everyone. Eden on the other hand was still very purge everyone old school.

@corvo

Sorry for the ridiculous wall of text.

On your points about the legion, i think a lot of people have it wrong. The legion are numerically inferior, how ever they have superior training to the ncr troopers. Legion warriors are trained from the time they can swing a blade to the time they can be deployed in combat. NCR troopers on the other hand are taught the basics but clearly they are treated as cannon fodder. Hence the battle for helios one where the bos was over powered with numbers. The NCR troopers are ll given low level conscript training by the time the events of new vegas are happening. The raisin the legion seem inferior is because new vegas doesn't have the gameplay mechanics to support non scripted guerrilla ambush tactics which is almost all the legion would use outside of major battles. As indicated by dialogue with ncr troopers and several events in game; such as when you retrieve supplies from forlorn hope, when the legion raid forlorn hope (cut content), when they take nelson (only when spoken of), when private renolds squad is ambushed and captured, when the legion sneak in to search light, the various legion spies, the arming of the omertas, attempting to use the khans, when comm officer lenk is ambushed and smashed in the skull, ranger station charlie is wiped out, nipton. The legion attempt every other tactic besides direct head on combat. Like vietcong guerrillas fighting infantry from ww1. The game play just doesn't support what they are supposed to do in game so they try to convey it through other actions and quests in the game and the narrative.