Well, I'm finally awake and ready to type my opinion on the matter. I will give it to Emil, he does have a few interesting ideas when it comes to writing, but his actual writing ability must've dwindled over time. Now I am one of the few people that think FO4's writing isn't terrible. I just think the way they structured the quests was what messed it up. They made it so that almost every quest had only one outcome, is geared toward being a goody two shoes, and that the main character is the superhero. It's even more glaring in the DLC(well, atleast the ones that aren't centered around settlements). The DLCs(especially Far Harbor) was like night and day when it came to writing. Far Harbor was written Will Chen, not Emil, and the difference definitely shows. In Far Harbor, you have wider array of choices in how you want to do the quests. You can actually do evil things. Yes, in Nuka World you could do this, too, but that DLC is centered around being evil. If you choose to kill off all the Raider gangs and free the slaves, a big chunk of the DLC is gone, which is a pretty bad design choice. All you get to do after that is explore and do any sidequests that doesn't involve the Raiders. In Far Harbor, being evil is just a moral choice. If you don't want to be Evil, you don't have to and you still get something favorable in return. You can even bring in factions from the base game to come in and do some things(not spoiling cause' the outcomes are pretty cool). This was what a lot of older Fallout fans wanted, choice and freedom. The storybased DLCs gave us that. Will Chen did a overall great job on writing Far Harbor. He gave the lore a lot of depth and fleshed out the characters, especially Nick Valentine, who is considered by many to be one of the best parts in the base game of FO4. I do think Emil should stay in Bethesda and use his talents in another department of the company which involves story design and let Will Chen take his place(Or at least any other competent writer). I don't think Bethesda should drop him entirely, from what I read about him, he has been with Bethesda for a LONG time. He just needs to be moved to another department where his talents can better be used, that's all.

dantaefetticus wrote:

Well, I'm finally awake and ready to type my opinion on the matter. I will give it to Emil, he does have a few interesting ideas when it comes to writing, but his actual writing ability must've dwindled over time. Now I am one of the few people that think FO4's writing isn't terrible. I just think the way they structured the quests was what messed it up. They made it so that almost every quest had only one outcome, is geared toward being a goody two shoes, and that the main character is the superhero. It's even more glaring in the DLC(well, atleast the ones that aren't centered around settlements). The DLCs(especially Far Harbor) was like night and day when it came to writing. Far Harbor was written Will Chen, not Emil, and the difference definitely shows. In Far Harbor, you have wider array of choices in how you want to do the quests. You can actually do evil things. Yes, in Nuka World you could do this, too, but that DLC is centered around being evil. If you choose to kill off all the Raider gangs and free the slaves, a big chunk of the DLC is gone, which is a pretty bad design choice. All you get to do after that is explore and do any sidequests that doesn't involve the Raiders. In Far Harbor, being evil is just a moral choice. If you don't want to be Evil, you don't have to and you still get something favorable in return. You can even bring in factions from the base game to come in and do some things(not spoiling cause' the outcomes are pretty cool). This was what a lot of older Fallout fans wanted, choice and freedom. The storybased DLCs gave us that. Will Chen did a overall great job on writing Far Harbor. He gave the lore a lot of depth and fleshed out the characters, especially Nick Valentine, who is considered by many to be one of the best parts in the base game of FO4. I do think Emil should stay in Bethesda and use his talents in another department of the company which involves story design and let Will Chen take his place(Or at least any other competent writer). I don't think Bethesda should drop him entirely, from what I read about him, he has been with Bethesda for a LONG time. He just needs to be moved to another department where his talents can better be used, that's all.

Lets also keep in mind that just because he is a lead writer doesn't mean his ideas are heard or even able to be implemented. It could be those above him and others that are preventing him from doing his job properly. He did work on previous games which were awesome and it might be he is burned out or it might be because he cannot do what he wanted to do in the game. Time, money, people above him veto his stories, perhaps even parts of the entire game (story) cut from the game. This has even been the case in the past and modders have been able to find awesome remnants to this but only partially. Some were due to stress and problems and other due to time. I am sure there was other content that was cut due to veto from the developer, time and other concerns.

The main thing that I think needs to be clearly stated, we want better stories for RPGs. This is must requirement for an RPG. Great battle mechanics and other features are wonderful but without a story an RPG is INCOMPLETE. I think that is what is most important.

I bet Mr. Emil is sitting on a wad of cash right now laughing all the way to the bank at you guys. You really think even if he did care about Fallout, that he would care in the slightest? That your opinion would sabotage his career?

Because Fallout Subforums is serious business

@Corvo Hey, if Mr. Emil is getting a lot moolah and is able to provide for himself and his family(well, if he has a family), I'm happy for him. All I'm basically saying is that he should be moved to another department involving story since lead writer isn't the best spot for him, that's all.

@ritualclarity You got a point there. Modders have found entire quests that have cut from the main game. The Combat Zone Restored and the option to make Danse Elder are good examples of this.

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/21923/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/21498/?

These two mods added so much more to the game. The Combat Zone was very fun and the Danse Dilemma mod added much more choice in how to handle the matter.

dantaefetticus wrote:

@Corvo Hey, if Mr. Emil is getting a lot moolah and is able to provide for himself and his family(well, if he has a family), I'm happy for him. All I'm basically saying is that he should be moved to another department involving story since lead writer isn't the best spot for him, that's all.

@ritualclarity You got a point there. Modders have found entire quests that have cut from the main game. The Combat Zone Restored and the option to make Danse Elder are good examples of this.

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/21923/?

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/21498/?

These two mods added so much more to the game. The Combat Zone was very fun and the Danse Dilemma mod added much more choice in how to handle the matter.

Thanks for the links to the added content. I wasn't aware of this content.

Also I would like to add that it might not be Emil doing. He might have been vetoed. If this is the case, then those that decided against the added content and story, well they are the ones that need to be moved. In short, whomever is responsible for the story as it is and whomever has short changed the stories should be seriously reconsidering this path. Fallout is an RPG and really needs fleshed out story and characters for the players to feel a greater connection with. It is essential.

I bring this up becuase I can't even count the amount of times I have been vetoed or instructed to do something that wasn't the best choice at the place I work at where it relates to my responsibities. The "big guys" know what is going on but those lower don't often know or realize that it isn't my choice to do something a specific way.

For the statement above where it is assumed that it won't hurt his career. It very well might. Even if he isn't the responsible party it can make his future employment at other jobs (or there) less than 100% secure. Even if one isn't responsible for the decisions that have brought a project to the point that it is at, it still reflects negativly on them for being a part of the process. It will be harder to show otherwise.

@dantaefetticus You know, I actually applaud at Beth for doing a much better job in FO4 than they did in previous two games. There's more creativity and for first time their companions felt actually interesting (Hancock, Cait, Valentine). So it's not like they're regressing, it's just that they aren't improving fast enough. Look at CD Project Red and how quickly they improved with each Witcher game, in terms of visuals AND story.

@Corvo Oh, man. Your posts are really something because I feel you're one of those people who just must be always right and get the last word at the end. What logic makes you say that just because someone doesn't agree with you, they must be "betraying their true opinions just to be accepted"? And so what that Emil earned lots of money from writing these games? It's his job, so he did it to the best of his ability, even if it wasn't that great. It wasn't just him who made the game, it was crafted by an effort of entire studio and all of them put their work and are responsible for the end product. Game design influences writing influences level design influences genre etc.

I feel like you don't understand how criticism works and how people engage with cultural works, be it books, movies or video games.

Corvo wrote:

I bet Mr. Emil is sitting on a wad of cash right now laughing all the way to the bank at you guys. You really think even if he did care about Fallout, that he would care in the slightest? That your opinion would sabotage his career?

Because Fallout Subforums is serious business

Just casual discussion about subjects is good for the mind and could help you grow as a person , also we are all here to have a good time talking to each other so if we have a voice is not really all that important right now.

Lets just continue the discussion in peace and harmony

superpele wrote:

@dantaefetticus You know, I actually applaud at Beth for doing a much better job in FO4 than they did in previous two games. There's more creativity and for first time their companions felt actually interesting (Hancock, Cait, Valentine). So it's not like they're regressing, it's just that they aren't improving fast enough. Look at CD Project Red and how quickly they improved with each Witcher game, in terms of visuals AND story.

Interesting take. I will have to think on this more, however, as I see it currently they are equal. I don't see any more development in the companions over the previous Fallout games. Any improvment I think could be contributed to the added space the developers had to work with.

I am reluctant to point to CD Project Red as an example. Not becuase they aren't great, they are, but because they aren't quite doing the same job. They are creating a RPG and need the same elements. However, they are developing a custom engine as I understand it. Coding the entire game as they work on it. Bethesda on the other hand are catering to the modding community with a easy to mod game using a very aging engine. Which really needed to be replace several games ago. They really should start from the ground up and create a new one. This will limit their growth substantially as I see it. They don't have the room to flex and do the massive jumps in tech and quality that CD Project Red can.

I would be happy if they focused more on the stories, characters, and quest adding content and characteristics that will draw the player into the game more than it is currently. I understand and even accept the old engine that has been reworked until the end of days with all the glitches and bugs that occur with a Gamebro game engine if they just made it much story.

This isn't occurring just with Fallout titles. Mass Effect which Bioware had a hand in also has very week story. This game used the newer frostbite engine. Not an aged engine. The story and quest are very week and feel repetitive. Their stories across the board, character development and such is getting weaker and weaker as each game comes out. This is very bad.

@ritualclarity CD Project was probably not the best example, yeah. And while Beth's engine leaves much to be desired, it's mod-friendliness and capability is second to none (maybe only ARMA series).

Also I fully agree with you about Mass Effect. Bioware of today is no longer the studio that crafted the likes of KOTOR, Jade Empire, Dragon Age Origins & Mass Effect 1. Slowly they've been changing for the worse, but I still hold out hope that Andromeda was a wake-up call of sorts for them to change at least something in their approach to future titles.

@ritualclarity @superpele I personally feel that their quality dropped after Mass Effect 2. I love Mass Effect 2 and see it as the best in the franchise. I am currently playing DAO and enjoying it, I never played DA2, and Inquisition so far I am really enjoying. Mass Effect 3 really dropped the ball with it's ending. Bioware and EA felt every blow from the backlash of the ending. I still really like 3, but damn that ending was disappointing. I haven't played Andromeda yet. I hear a lot of mixed reviews, but leaning more on the disappointing side. I heard people that don't like the game said that it was the DA2 of Mass Effect. I can't really say anything on that since I haven't played either game. I am currently just gonna wait for a sale since I heard the bugs in the game are ATROCIOUS.

The bugs are "Atrocious" and they are working on them ... to a point. Not sure how far they will fix them but they have apparently reworked some of the NPCs that you meet and even changed their total animation besides adding and correcting facial glitches. Those total reworks on video do look much better than it was when it was released.

MEA is the fastest drop in price a game has had that is at this level I have ever seen.

The fighing mechanics are pretty good and solid. Most like the game for that. The character story and quest can feel a bit repetitive but there are some changes between the various planets you go to. There is essentially one group you are fighting and one native culture that you are friends with which seems a bit weak when it comes to comparing ME1. However the culture does seem fair with how they worked out their details. Not great but fair enough. ME1 and ME2 even parts of ME3 hinted at more and more details of the various species in the Milky galaxy so it might be their plan to do this storywise. There is enough to go on to start to get a feel for the race.

If they continue working on the bugs and animations that they appear to be doing when it gets about half price or so it might be worth it to see if YOU like it. At that time it wouldn't be much of a loss. I played about 30~40 hours on the game and started over but haven't been able to finish it. This would be the first game of this level I haven't finished within 3 months pf purchse that wasn't caused by personal scheduling issues. I have completed every game I have bought at this price/level.

Hopefully I will come back after they do a lot of work on the game and be able to stand to complete it at least once.

To give a reference. I didn't like Fallout 4 very much, got it pre-order but in 6 months I completed it (main quest) for eachof the major factions, completed the DLCs at least once (Twice for NukaWorld and three times for Far Harbor) to see the various aspects of the game.

It isn't a horrible game at it's core. The fighting aspect is solid (other than a few bugs that are to be expected with a new released game) The planets are unique and different. There are some weak twist and turns in the writing which can possible supprise you so it isn't totally predictable. Mostly weak story and repetive quest formula combined with horrible facial gliitches and bad animations make it hard to play. The last parts look like will be fixed.

Hope that helps.

I'm just going to say, I never play a Bethesda RPG for story anymore, simply because I know it's not going to be great. This isn't just Fallout either. Skyrim's story was pretty weak, and very generic in my opinion. I'd love for Chris Avellone take over. He just recently worked on the new Prey that just came out. If Chris was the new lead writer, I'd have some restored faith in the writing again. Just my opinion though.

Yes, I would like to see a new writer for Bethesda. I really enjoy Obsidian's works and would like to see them take over a bit more, perhaps even see them produce an TES game. FNV is one of my favorite games of all time, I have well over 1000 hours with it, and will continue to play it. I agree with many people's complaints about Fallout 4's story, and a voiced character....Despite all of that, I will play more of Fallout 4, and I will acquire the next Fallout game and the next TES game. Perhaps they will improve.

The writing in Fallout 3 (You Again!-Colonel Autumn) and 4 (Ordered 2 pizza's and a calzone, name is "Fuck You"-Player Character) is dreadful. I do not want to come of as a fanboy blinded by love for New Vegas but the writing in it is infinitely better. There are so many memorable quotes from the base game and its respective DLC's. Apart from the embarrassing examples i mentioned, i cannot remember a single line of dialogue in either F3 or F4. Bethesda either need to get new writers or focus on Elder Scrolls and give Obsidian another shot at a fallout game (And maybe give them a development cycle longer than the average pregnancy to finish it).

I agree with the person above me. 4 just sounds bland and boring. while in fallout New Vegas....

"Are you a bringer of war or peace"

"Pizza"

"I See"

I'd say most likely. I know Fallout 4's story was sort of limited due to the experimental voiced protag, but the writing was pretty weak in my opinion. I think they need to get someone who's had some experience with the original Fallout games, but like New Vegas had on its dev team.

Mr. Emil, hmm...I still wonder why fans bashing on Pete Hines about that Kid in the Fridge, ya know the one with ghoul need both food & water to survive, & other. need to say this, I am feel bad for Pete Hines when people blamed him about the established lore of Fallout universe got wrecked. I mean, Pete Hines is just your regular marketing guy in video games industry, he's not the designer or lead writer. so yeah, that's just my wondering, either way Mr. Emil need to respect the established lore itself even though the plot holes of Fallout 4 is massive, have a passion as a video games writer as any other writer like CDprojectred & obviously Obsidian.

I think it is a sign of the times, fallout 4 became more linear than New Vegas. Games are going that way too, look at Hitman. I just think people know what their mainstream audiences want, and ignore the small loyal fanboy consumer.

I do think that Bethesda needs a lot of improvement in the writing department. Although I don't think the writing in their games are terrible, it just really is not up to par and feels pretty bland when compared with most other games. As much as I love the Elder Scrolls games as well as Fallout 3 and 4, the main story has never really impressed me. In fact, a lot of the time, there are side quests that end up being far more interesting.  

I agree with mostly everyone that Obsidian has definitely proved to be much better in every aspect when it comes to writing. From characters, Lore, and quests, I felt like everything in New Vegas just had so much more depth than anything Bethesda had done. With Fallout 3, I've always felt that the good karma ending was the "true" or "definitive" ending. Whereas in New Vegas, none of the endings felt truly like the right choice. As a result, I found myself rethinking my decisions everytime I beat the game. Everything is in shades of gray which is one of the best aspects in Fallout New Vegas and suits the Fallout series much more. This also leads to a whole lot of discussion as there is a case to be made for each of the endings and why this faction is better than another.

In my opinion writing is the worst problem of modern gaming industry. Everybody tries to invent some new plot, but those effots to differ from anything that had been written earlier makes things only worse.

In order to invent new ideas and scenarios one should have open mind, courage and no restrictions from the boss who gives the money. In modern gaming this is practically impossible... But those, who dare to oppose these common restrictions make marvellous games, set new standards and prosper (like SP:R with their Witcher).