Okay, first off. If you don't want to hear someone complaining about the current state of modding then don't read this post. I'm sorry, but this is something I want to get off my chest. Secondly when I mean the "modding community" I don't mean the GUNetwork or games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, or FNV since those games have some pretty solid mods still. This post will mainly be about Skyrim and the train wreck that is Fallout 4. Also in no way is this about the games themselves.

Now then. What is going on with the modding community? I remember when games like Skyrim and Fallout 4 we're new. People had alot of plans, alot of cool armor and weapons came out, it was a glorious time especially for Skyrim. Before I address Fallout 4, I want to address Skyrim. Skyrim is a great game, no one can deny that. And when it first began it was the perfect place to find all sorts of great mods, but lately the Nexus site has been full of repeat bug fixes, female followers (Most of the time they wear skimpy clothes), and very skimpy female armor. I'm so sick of it. I'm sick of logging on to Skyrim and seeing these kinds of mods.

Look, I understand that alot of people like to play as women and I have no problem with that. However the Skyrim nexus use to be so much more. You would find armors that would fit both male and female characters, you would find story based quest mods, high quality weapon mods, etc. Now it's starting to look like a playboy section for mods. If people really want to see porn then go watch porn! To me, this is what skimpy armor is. Sure. Go ahead and call me names or try to defend those armors, but for me that's what it is. Basically porn in Skyrim. We could have so many more great armors especially since CDPR has given permission for people to use assets from Witcher 3 in their mods, but nope! People rather see boobies! Great, just great...

And now with Fallout 4....I'm sorry, but the Fallout 4 nexus is falling apart. It started strong and people even posted incredible mods, but now all I see are body types, vanilla guns with a different name and improved stats, bug fixes, and retextures. All the cool mods have halted and some have even been taken down. Why? Because of Bethesda.theft. Yes, this is another Bethesda site rant. It's as I said before, I do feel for the console players who do want to use mods. I really do and honestly they're not to blame. However...damn, I hate that site. I feel like it's slowly killing the modding scene for Fallout 4. Why? Because people are taking mods from the nexus and reuploading them onto Bethesda's site. And Bethesda won't stop it! Maybe they are working on something to prevent this, but at the moment I don't see anything!

Now, I'm gonna address the elephant in the room. Now, these are not my words. I want to stress that. However on youtube and sometimes even the Nexus, when people address the GUNetwork and mods being taken from the GUNetwork all I hear is "Good! Those guys are arrogant and won't share their mods! They deserve to have their mods leaked!". Arrogant? Honestly...no. I've been on the GUNetwork for a while now, perhaps even a year and honestly everyone on here is far from arrogant. Everyone is really nice and I love talking to you guys. As for not sharing the mods. I admit, at first I was in the same boat. I thought, "Why would people hide these wonderful mods?", but now I see why. It's because people have no regard for the hard work that goes into these mods. Everyone thinks they're entitled to every mod ever created. And simply that's no true. Now if standing up for modder's rights and agreeing with policies on a site that wants to prevent any more mod thefts makes me arrogant than so be it! I'm arrogant.

Anyway, so what was the point of this post? Well, most of it was just me ranting how I feel. Now, I understand that Skyrim is an old game and alot of Skyrim modders have left the modding scene. Fine. But I do want to address the Fallout 4 part. If things don't change soon, then I'm afraid this will be the end of modding for Bethesda games. Am I over exaggerating? Mmm....maybe. But the thing is, the Bethesda site is gonna be used with all future Bethesda games. And I doubt people will stop stealing mods over night. If Bethesda doesn't change their ways soon, if they don't figure out a way to prevent mod theft or even work with the modders, then people will soon no longer bother with Bethesda games and move on.

Chill down your way over exaggerating skyrim bug fixes are a good thing as there are so many good mods lately ( you have lived under a rock as endereal is a whole other skyrim experience coming in a few weeks) and llok at skyrim reddit it has shoutouts to great mods.

For fo4 idk but fallout 4 does not have all the elder scrolls fanbase in it so we have to see if it's dead after.

lukaboot wrote:

Chill down your way over exaggerating skyrim bug fixes are a good thing as there are so many good mods lately ( you have lived under a rock as endereal is a whole other skyrim experience coming in a few weeks) and llok at skyrim reddit it has shoutouts to great mods.

For fo4 idk but fallout 4 does not have all the elder scrolls fanbase in it so we have to see if it's dead after.

I agree on the bug fixes. Those are usually good...usually. My problem is they're repeat bug fixes. Most of them have already been made yet people make them again anyways and repost them. That's what I have a problem with. I understand reddit is a good source, but I mainly discussing the Nexus and how it's changed significantly.

TheThompsonBoss wrote:

all I see are body types, vanilla guns with a different name and improved stats, bug fixes, and retextures

That's not entirely fair, the top mods on nexus right now are:

1. DKS-501 Sniper Rifle - Handmade mesh and textures
2. Fallout 4 HD Reworked Project Revised
3. Submersible Power Armor - Brand-new unique power armour
4. Remington 1858 New Model Army - Handmade mesh and textures
5. Star Wars - BlasTech E-11 - Handmade mesh and textures
6. Colt Python - Handmade mesh and textures

All of these are original works and I've followed the WIP process on some of them, like the submersible power armour. They pushed a bunch of female clothing mods out of the hot-files section and the DKS-501 is has close to 900 endorsements in barely a week. Clearly people do want these mods, and want to show their appreciation.

At a glance yes there is a lot of naughty lingerie mods and recolors, but there are also really great mods. But great mods take a lot of time to make, some aren't announced either. The maker of the M2019 PKD Detective Special just uploaded an entirely reworked version with a new model and texture after pouring many hours into it. The creation kit hasn't been out frightfully long either and a lot of people have their attention elsewhere, on mods they want to finish for NV or Skyrim for example. Some of the best mods for NV and Skyrim weren't made until after the games and all DLC had been out for a while, too.

It can look grim when seen from certain angles, but there's no reason to be fatalistic.

@Waffenbaum I'm not denying that there have been alot of good mods to come out especially recent. I think my problem is....it use to be when I would turn on the Fallout 4 Nexus or even the Skyrim Nexus I would see a bunch of cool mods. But now it's more a every few days you'll get a cool mod. Most of the time it is all the stuff I've mentioned.

I also do see what you mean with mods taking time. I don't know, maybe I am being a little unfair. It's just, I've been going on for months and I feel the quality of mods are decreasing and good mods that have been uploaded are being taken down mainly because they are being upload to Bethesda's site without permission.

Bethesda is doing no-one any favours. But it's nothing new from their side, they tried to monopolize on the modding community with the paid mods on steam, that was a disaster, so now they are trying it on console players instead. I am sure they'll attempt to add a paywall on some of the better mods to see how the console crowd will react.

I think the nexus will weather it though. Bethesda will eventually be forced to close their mod site if all they get is complaints of theft, they are notoriously bad at handling community complaints and would probably rather shut it down than try to moderate what people upload. They barely moderate their steam workshops, as it is.

As for the mods themselves, I have followed the nexus forum discussions and a lot of people are coming to terms with the new file structure of FO4 as well as the way things are cobbled together that makes it really hard to do things the way you want to do them.
Some examples of this is that the receiver on bolt-action rifles can only be on the left side of the weapon because you can't add custom animations (or rather, there are no custom animations yet) and of course quest mods are suffering due to the fact that you cannot record new lines for the otherwise voiced main character. Several major design changes by bethesda has made it a difficult and turbulent change from previous titles, and with that in mind I think the community is doing exceptionally well.

Once the last DLC is out, and it should be soon (Nuka World) I am sure things will be picking up in terms of creativity.

Well I have been a member of GUN, when it was VGU, and even before that even..
alot of those people who do end up complaining about this site are as you put it entitled... I mean.. shame on us for asking them to post and become a member who actually talks to other members?

GUN doesnt ask for money all it asks for is just talk to people, meet people and modders and just a whee bit of patience and you get approved its super easy..

but people seem to be hung up on instant satisfaction, the concept of waiting is gone and that they are simply entitled to others hard work.. that is the lions share of the people who are bad mouthing the GUN right now.

On to Bethesda..

Well...I mean.. they make games that are mod-able... but buggy and often have to be fixed by the community. The long life span of Bethesda games is solely attributed to the modding community. Because if the modding community wasnt here, games like Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout NV, Skyrim.. would probably only be popular for about a year before they would die out. The mods keep the game fresh, new and relevant.

Bethesda wants to capitalize on that by putting it on their consoles now. Because then it will get the people who have hopes and dreams for games like fallout 4, that they didnt think they could realize with the Vanilla version of Fallout 4.

So basically all Bethesda is seeing is $$$, there is even Blizzard content on Bethesda.net and they havent taken that down yet... so who knows.

Bethesda is largely unresponsive to their community of gamers because they believe that even unhappy, people will buy their titles. If their community didnt buy any more until the problems were fixed, then they would fix the problem. Because if they dont fix the problem and still make the same money, what is the incentive for them to fix the problem? It seems like they are not so much interested in making the games good, just instead working on making the games "Good enough" to turn a profit.

There are a few factors that affect why there isn't much of a creative mod scene in Fallout 4, and the first very visible factor is Bethesda's mistakes when it comes to approaching the mod community, but there is another, almost invisible force that I believe affects people and modders like myself, who are VERY fond of their RPG elements and approaching the game world My Way and all that. I've seen some people even sort of stop their modding careers because they've been unable to get used to the "changes", which I will be ranting about now.

Those sort-of "invisible", underlying elements that decide whether a game is or is not fertile ground for creative modding are:
- Linearity / unlinearity of the story
- The UI
- The mechanical way the game plays (Whether it plays like a FPS or like an RPG)

I have looked at the way I behave in different Fallout and TES titles, and I've come to the conclusion that these factors define whether I can stick to playing the game, or not. There is a certain, hard to explain phenomenon caused by linear storytelling's practical application that seems to push me away from a game and make me unable to move on in the game, and I believe others may share this experience. So without further ado:

The Rant - A thorough critique and breakdown of FO4 and modding
(Disclaimer: Contains minor spoilers about the plots of several Fallout and TES games)

Have you noticed how long-living, active mod scenes seem to be focused on a very specific kind of game? An unlinear RPG with a game world that doesn't force it's player to actively take part in the actual main quest, the story of the game? Morrowind was a perfect example of such a game, and the modding community of Morrowind is in many ways the predecessor of what even we are today.

In Morrowind you are sort of just thrown into a world and you aren't given a purpose. There's something very liberating about the thought that you have a huge world with a story to explore, but you have no duties. You can choose your duties when you happen upon them. This is something Morrowind and New Vegas did very well, and which Fallout 4 does not do so well. Skyrim and Fallout 3 come somewhere in between, and I have noticed that while playing them

In Morrowind, you aren't the hero when you start the game. Saving the world is almost like another thing you can just stumble upon while exploring, so it seems like when you eventually do it, it's the direct result of your own choices and the journey you made.

In the beginning of New Vegas, you aren't the guy who's set up to save the Mojave and win Hoover Dam, you're just an innocent bystander that gets shot by someone else's efforts to do that. You rise to play that part through a long journey of getting stronger and more experienced before the Hoover Dam has anything to do with you. Your role only begins at the Strip, and due to clever map design you've most likely already explored more than half of the map, and "happening upon" the NCR, The Legion, several settlements, side quests and places that give you knowledge, experience and power in the Mojave.

You are only offered the role of the hero on the Strip, and it makes sense, because through your own actions before you've leveled up to be strong and made a difference in the Mojave by doing sidequests. This is where you begin to have a main objective in the game, which eventually evolves to the last, linear ending sequence: The Hoover Dam. And this is the point where I find myself unable to move on. To this day, I have not played the battle of the Hoover Dam. I have not finished New Vegas.

This is because what I love about these games is not the linear fate of the main hero, but rather a wandering explorer who becomes a hero through their actions.

In Skyrim, the role of the Dragonborn becomes the central part of the game very early, somewhere around Whiterun. I loved being the Dragonborn for a couple of playthroughs, but eventually when I just wanted to be a Dark Brotherhood Assassin I just ignored the main quest concerning being Dragonborn and dragons completely because I didn't want the game to send me dragon encounters as a reminder of my pre-written role.

In Fallout 4 however, your role is set from the first second of the game. Your character's past and present has been written, and that gives little room for the future. You already have duties concerning your family as soon as you wake up in the vault, and the duties will always be the same on a new playthrough. This does not fit me. This was certainly done to appeal to a more casual audience who finishes the vanilla story once or twice, and you can see it in every mechanical aspect of the game as well.

The Mass Effect-style voiced protagonist and dumbed down dialogue system made only with the linear main game in mind leaves very little room for quest modders. The main character's pre-defined character kills roleplaying.

The new "RPG UI" seems to be more similar to Far Cry 3, a sort of power-up system for an FPS game. These things are absolute deal-breakers for me. I've played the game at my friend's, and I've decided against buying or modding it for these reasons, which is a shame because the actual setting and structure of the game world in the trailers got me hyped up. The gameplay and every mechanical part of the UI is just the complete opposite from what I want in a Fallout game.

Even the way they integrated Wasteland Defense and a weapon modding system into the vanilla game sort of makes the vanilla game better for people who aren't into mods, but it is also a step to make imported one-piece weapons out-of-place in the game's mechanical UI.

And those changes are so irreversible that, to turn Fallout 4 into the kind of RPG that New Vegas and Morrowind are you cannot just mod them out of sight. You'd have to develop a new game.

And if that's how it's going to be, I will pass on this title, and wait for said new game.

I think my biggest issue with fallout 4 and modding have been about performance. That game is so terribly optimized. I don't want a 4 minute load screen to test my new textures.

It's very likely that FO4 will be what FO3 was to New Vegas. Maybe Obsidian will (fingers crossed) be allowed to come back and do a follow-up title using FO4 as their frame, I'm aware there's some kind of friction between the companies so I'm not sure.

I personally did not enjoy FO3 very much, for entirely different versions than FO4. The labyrinthine DC layout, having to travel through endless subways, and the quests not really feeling very "Fallout"-ish made it a strange experience which I can't remember if I ever finished. I never even got to play Point Lookout because I can't get the game to run these days, no matter how many fixes I apply.

Considering how good NV was when compared, in terms of setting and writing, I have every hope that FO4 can be used to create another great game a while from now, but as it stands there's a lot of bad choices on the part of the devs which limits the enjoyment, like Eetterinakki said above for example, no freedom whatsoever. You can do what you want but everything is always tied to your wife and child. You have no real control over the character save for [Sarcastic response], [Yes] and [Give me another line of dialogue] when it comes to interacting with the world and characters.

Whether it's Obsidian or Bethesda themselves who writes the next game, I hope it takes the good things FO4 introduced like the great gunplay and makes away with some of the less great things like the voiced protagonist. Still, good mods and more customization is always great.

Perhaps someone will do an overhaul that does away with the main story altogether or replaces it with something much less pigeon-holed and character defining. It would be a herculean task but definitely worth it.

Doggo wrote:

I think my biggest issue with fallout 4 and modding have been about performance. That game is so terribly optimized. I don't want a 4 minute load screen to test my new textures.

I have the game installed on an SSD. Loading is about 44 seconds from start menu until ingame. I can absolutely recommend it if it's something you can get hold of.

I agree with most of what you said. I haven't played Skyrim so I wouldn't know about that but I can firmly say that Fallout 4 mods are somewhat lacking creativity.

Although, that's because modding for FO4 is just starting. For know, we'll probably only see guns and clothes/armor mods until people start or finish bigger projects.

The only thing I hate about FO4 modding is that it seems that only skimpy clothes are being made. And the worst part is that the modders that actually made lore-friendly clothes will be staying on NV or simply won't mod FO4 since most didn't like it.

I guess only time will tell, maybe we'll eventually get awesome mods as the ones I use to see for NV or FO3. Who knows, maybe someguy2000 will make some awesome quest mods for FO4 or maybe once The Frontier it's done they'll move onto FO4. I haven't lost hope yet.

@"Doggo"

Yeah The loading times are horrendous. Sometimes I just shut down the game because i'm tired of waiting. When testing mods it's especially worse, waiting up 6 minutes sometimes ("I'll know because I'll listen to a six minute song and sometimes it still won't be done by then end) only to find out that it doesn't work, or didn't install right.

I don't play Skyrim, but i agree with what you said about Fallout 4.

@SentinelHunter I had no idea the loading times were that bad on a regular hard drive. Does it also increase depending on the amount of mods installed? And/or depending on how much needs to be loaded in a save?

I had no plans to post here further, but I came here because of an email alerting me to a new PM, saw this topic and felt compelled to reply to it.

While there's no shortage of opinions on what's wrong with Fallout 4, it is pretty silly to compare the progress of FO4 modding to what has been done with Fallout 3/NV or Skyrim.  The game hasn't even been out a year, and the modding tools have only existed for a few months.  

Basing your expectations for a game that is literally in its infancy on titles which have existed for 5-8 years makes very little sense.  

If anything FO4 is actually quite consistent with the trends we saw with Oblivion, Fallout 3/NV and Skyrim.  Initially it was mostly tweaks and overhauls along with retexture-type stuff and the 'better bodies' type mods - then you'd see a few custom weapons from skilled people like Alexscorpion, and eventually the huge quest mods and custom races/cutting-edge armors and weapons came along as people grew more familiar with the tools and knowledge was more widespread.

That's pretty much exactly what we're seeing with Fallout 4.  And frankly there were some very impressive FO4 mods done with only FO4edit and a lot of trial and error only a month or so after the game originally released.

As far as people trashing this site goes, that's what happens when people - who are generally selfish and will opt for the path of least resistance more often than not - are told that they have to apply effort to something that they want now, now now.  So people hating this site is hardly the 'elephant in the room' at this point.  That's went on for years now, since even before my time here.  It is neither new nor shocking.  Why any of you care what a bunch of entitled, impatient whiners think, I'll never understand.

Regarding mod thieves, they are going to exist for as long as mods are created.  Whether its Bethesda.net or Nexus or here or some russian site is irrelevant - the pricks who steal and take credit for other peoples' work have always been a factor in this hobby.  That's a huge part of the reason I stopped modding entirely, and factored into my decision to stop posting here.  Constantly seeing the alerts about mods being stolen (usually Drag's or Rex's) and even having my own mods re-posted elsewhere without permission.  

There's no stopping it because there's no way to solve the greater issue - that issue being, people in general f***ing suck.

The quality of mods changed, because now it's more of a recognition thing, than making mods for replay value of a game.

Like veteran modders, did mods because it was an aspiration and a genuine hobby. Or they appreciated a game so much, and wanted to add what they believe was in it/add-ons/etc.

Newer modders only learn how to mod, for recognition and to get like social media followers, mostly. Not saying there's anything wrong with that; it's just pretty much why a lot of modding is mostly sexual or simple to tweak the interest of the masses.

Oh and for people who dislike G.U.N, its just what it is lol some people like pizza, some people hate pizza tomato-tomahto

@TheThompsonBoss: I personally think Beth.net showed the worst of both modders and people using said mods.

Beth.net is currently the easiest thing to blame right now: reality isn't as clear-cut and dry as they make it out to be. Yes, a few have legitimate grievances: but, don't be surprised when, after thumbing your nose at console users, they stuff your mod into Beth.net for console use to prove a point. A lot of it has to do with the Nexus providing too safe an environment for them to 'harden' up. If anything, I think modding is where all adults show their inner childishness. What you might not notice is that a lot of decent mods cease production. In the past, they'll just let it fade to obscurity. Nowadays? Blame Bethesda! You get to save face AND jump on the bandwagon!

Love how people are bitching and bemoaning the mods of Fallout 4, yet have done nothing to rectify that issue or even critically analyse it. Limit your search filter for Skyrim or even FNV mods to 8 months since the release of their CK, and prepare to be underwhelmed.

As a FO4 modder, I'm getting a bit sick of people saying how we're lacking in creativity or progress. You people expect us to be super-men about it, and when we just throw our arms in the air and say 'f*** it', you of all people have the right to call us out on it? Well, go right ahead, but don't be expected when we've had enough of self-righteous people like you and just retire for good.

@mpaz96: Selection bias at its finest.

dazzerfong wrote:

As a FO4 modder, I'm getting a bit sick of people saying how we're lacking in creativity or progress.

I wouldn't take it to heart because it is definitely not true in any capacity. It's a whole new game, new version of gamebryo and a new creation kit. People are still learning and the quality has ramped up rapidly from early recolor mods to the entirely new beautiful weapons and armor made from scratch that people keep releasing.

I am absolutely flabbergasted by the creativity and quality of the FO4 modding community considering all of the above. It's definitely an uphill battle with the wind in your face, being accused of laziness and having your work snatched by people who seem to believe porting a mod to console is as easy as checking off a box. It's unfair and in no way fun, for sure.

But I can only say please don't be discouraged, mods bring many people a lot of happiness and enjoyment, even if what people show most via comments is grievances, complaints and more often than not requests to make a mod suit precisely their needs. But if you could see the smiles during hours of gameplay using a great new gun or dressing up a downloaded companion with more care than people use when dressing themselves IRL, I am sure you'd have no doubt it's worth doing.

I would have to agree with you on the body mods, go into any Bethesda game and under models its tits galore. The thing is, is that the Fallout 4 modding community is a baby let them get their boobie mod out of the way so they can go make bigger and better mods. The thing the urks me is the fact to do animations for Fallout 4 is to buy some $1000 plus program that is what's wrong.

SgtSpectre wrote:

Well I have been a member of GUN, when it was VGU, and even before that even..
alot of those people who do end up complaining about this site are as you put it entitled... I mean.. shame on us for asking them to post and become a member who actually talks to other members?

GUN doesnt ask for money all it asks for is just talk to people, meet people and modders and just a whee bit of patience and you get approved its super easy..

but people seem to be hung up on instant satisfaction, the concept of waiting is gone and that they are simply entitled to others hard work.. that is the lions share of the people who are bad mouthing the GUN right now.

On to Bethesda..

Well...I mean.. they make games that are mod-able... but buggy and often have to be fixed by the community.  The long life span of Bethesda games is solely attributed to the modding community.  Because if the modding community wasnt here, games like Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout NV, Skyrim.. would probably only be popular for about a year before they would die out.  The mods keep the game fresh, new and relevant.

Bethesda wants to capitalize on that by putting it on their consoles now.  Because then it will get the people who have hopes and dreams for games like fallout 4, that they didnt think they could realize with the Vanilla version of Fallout 4.

So basically all Bethesda is seeing is $$$, there is even Blizzard content on Bethesda.net and they havent taken that down yet... so who knows.

Bethesda is largely unresponsive to their community of gamers because they believe that even unhappy, people will buy their titles.  If their community didnt buy any more until the problems were fixed, then they would fix the problem.  Because if they dont fix the problem and still make the same money, what is the incentive for them to fix the problem?  It seems like they are not so much interested in making the games good, just instead working on making the games "Good enough" to turn a profit.

Don't see why GUN should be mentioned in you post as OP stated that this is not about GUN