@toolio20

You can't call the newbies not fans just because of your sense of purity. It doesn't affect the reputation of Fallout 4 either way being that there's still a lot of franchise veterans out there that still like Fallout 4 and can argue that it is the best game. Doesn't mean you or I have to like it, but the people who like Fallout 4 are still fans of the franchise being that they enjoy the game and it's lore.

See you can call them less-dedicated fans or franchise rookies but it doesn't take away that they are still a fan and have opinions. Critics don't avoid critiquing games because it's their first instalment they played of that franchise. Whether you like it or not Fallout's best hope for surviving and thriving (forgive the rhyme) is for it to go mainstream, and with it becoming mainstream brings many new players into the fanbase.

I have already stated my facts. Fallout 4 IS factually the best-selling Bethesda game and currently on Steam it has the most players of all the Fallout games. If the game was as bad as the vocal minority make it out to be, why is it still being played and purchased after two years and more years to come in the future? And the vocal minority ARE factually the vocal minority being that Fallout 4's fanbase dwarfs that of FNV's fanbase so how could Fallout 4 be globally hated and FNV globally loved among the community when a huge fraction of the community never even played FNV?

Like you said, the new fans aren't going to have a frame of reference to judge Fallout 4 fairly, so they are obviously going to like Fallout 4 more so than the other game because they haven't played the other games. It's unfair, but they still are fans and their opinion matters just as much as everybody elses. There's a lot of people who base their opinion of New Vegas and 3 off of nostalgia, and although that is also an unfair and a bad argument, their opinion still matters.

Also I don't think you are grasping the idea of the vocal minority. They do post about their disappointment with the game but they are such a small fraction of the community that it's ridiculous to base everybody's opinions of the game off that small minority.

toolio20 wrote:

do you honestly think Fallout fans wanted the fourth game to be underwhelming?

That is a bit of a loaded question. You are assuming that Fallout 4 was underwhelming, and although it is certainly not overwhelming, it is far from underwhelming. Some fans that expected too much were disappointed enough to take out metaphorical pitchforks and type frantically expelling their hate for the game, sheepish others just followed them like cattle, but most of the community did not do as such and actually liked the game, even if they thought it was lacking in some areas, and it's success says as much.

Wow! This really sparked some debate and great feed back. For me as someone who has been playing since FO3 was new I just decided to let go of FO4's short comings and accept it for what it is. Even with FO3 and FNV you eventually complete everything and are left to wander the waste and survive. This of course does not count mods that can extend game play. Also for me the companion affinity system in FO4 could of been so much deeper. They could have made it like real life and made it take a long time to form a special bond with a companion. This is an example of the lazy stigma rightfully attached to FO4. I'm actually happy to say I like all of the Fallouts for what they have to offer. Again great feedback everyone.

TL;DR : It was a great FPS game but not a very good RPG game and it lacked compared to its predecessors. Just ended up being Skyrim with guns.

The story was very weak compared to that of the first two game as well as New Vegas. The gunplay is amazing in FO4. It makes shooting fun and enjoyable. But the issue stems from that it seems to be the one of the only truly good upgrade in terms of the Fallout 3D series.

The workshop system, although very fun and - with mods of course - time-consuming, makes no sense in the way the story is presented and the development of your character. We are so caught up in trying to find our son yet we go and waste many in-game weeks building and improving settlements almost as if we forgot we had a son in the first place.

The weapon modding system, although very well-intentioned, made the weapons end up being the same thing but with a different model. The silly mod "Any Mod Any Weapon", in my opinion, is where the weapon mod system shines It makes sense in an apocalyptic world that we would try to create and modify weapons with components and other weapons we have so seeing a radiation dish on a laser weapon could make sense if the player character was skilled in crafting and science.

Speaking of skills, the way they restructured the perk system was both a hit and a miss. Although the new system didn't make the game so heavily reliant on your skill points like previous games, it dumbed it down to where none of it really mattered. The increase in the importance of the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. stats in certain situations was a nice touch. But the system overall was very much dumbed down.

Another point is the infinite level cap. Although I like the idea of leveling up indefinitely, what it does is kill the potential for multiple character builds one could create on different playthroughs. It made it to where a person would play only one character who was basically a super human who could do anything and survive anything. With FO3 and FNV, you had to build your character wisely since you only had 50 or so levels. Did you want an energy weapon character, a pistol character , a rifle character , or a smooth talker who didn't have to really fight to progress the story ? You had to make that decision when you started that character. Not once in FO4 did I get the urge to start another character. Why put more time into a character that will ultimately end up being a copy of a character I have already? Sure, you could say that I could get the different endings but that in FO4 wasn't a big factor.

Back to the story, another gripe was the endings. With FNV, there were multiple endings all pertaining to your choices (or lack of choices), as well as your Karma level. In FO4, you basically just choose a side and all it really does is determine who you will destroy. No major plot differences since the game's ending is basically the same unlike the slideshow of FNV. Also, there aren't any options to make peace with other factions when siding with one. The only way that almost all factions can survive and be friendly/non-hostile with each other is through the Minutemen but there is a bunch of hoops to jump through rather than going to each respective faction leader and either destroying them or have a truce or alliance with them. *Spoiler Alert* Even when you become the head of the Institute, that doesn't really offer up any REAL choices. The choices it presents you with don't even change anything in the game world. You are just left to your own imagination as to what you would do in the future as leader of the Institute without you actually doing such things in the game itself. The game did not really give the player choice. It gave us the illusion of choice.

The game was made to appeal to the casual gamers. It was more focused on keeping the player killing enemies and building settlements rather than deep story telling and choices that actually mattered and making a world that was believable and rich (and lore-compliant). Bethesda sought to sell more copies to anyone that was mildly interested rather than appealing to the hardcore Fallout player base. an ideal Fallout game for me would have the gunplay and graphics of FO4 as well as the writing and story of FO1, FO2, and FNV.

There, my essay is completed. Have a nice day.

toolio20 wrote:

@Eikeegi

Wow. Taste is subjective, bro, and you are allowed to like whatever the hell you want. Not sure what forums you were getting figuratively smacked around on, but you can not let those negative experiences silence you. Just because something is popular doesn't mean you're obligated to jump on the bandwagon. Don't let yourself be browbeat - you like what you like, and if someone can't deal with that stick your middle finger in their face and let them know they can get f****d.

You are  very kind and it is good to hear that sometimes.

I do not have 'blind love' to it. I could rant hours about how  certain things are portrayed in it. I hate so much in it, but ... I hated and loved things in FO3, in New vegas and I am aware that there cannot be a perfect game.  In fact I hated FO4 so much during my 1st play trough I  uninstalled it and forgot it, but then something stupid happened.  I got Far Harbor beta (and workshop betas, and later Nuka world beta). And I laughed what twist of fate this must have been - give a hater free DLC ? Not one ? But later end up giving most of them- what the heck !

So I made new character. Started with fresh mind. I somehow had whole different experience - be it trough succeeded speech checks or personal touches I started to add. Eventually I do not know what I like in it : the actual game, or the story I had built for myself.  And some point, when a Beth employee came respond on one of my screens at BethNet saying its really cool. I  just ..  couldn't hate it anymore.

I appreciate Bethesda for giving me the platform. I still stand true to the shortcomings and opinions I had when I 1st hated the game with passion, but I discovered whole new side. Its 1st video game I even did as much  fan art to (my signature has one of those fan art doodles), i completely re-built the game for myself. It's nothing like Bethesda, yet I cannot have had my own story and world without Bethesda's world.

Perhaps it is least Fallout of them all. But it has something I have come to love. It is not a perfect game, but I've yet to play one that is.

And I love Institute. Coursers are way to cool... waaaay too cool.

As side note - I am maybe a newbie in the fans eyes as my 1st FO was 3rd, and I was introduced to series by Bethesda back in days. But honestly on my side of world no one had heard of fallout before it appeared from nowhere with Bethesda's trailer. I instantly fell in it. new vegas was even better blast. And 4th just eventually made me admit the obvious -  "Sue me, I like Fallout, ok!"

For a different perspective, 4 is the only game from the franchise I've played and I absolutely loved it. I'm probably the demographic they were going for - an unvoiced protagonist is a dealbreaker for me, I don't play RPGs to RP radically different characters but to experience the world and story and get to know interesting characters, beautiful graphics and smooth combat are integral to my enjoyment, I appreciate having the option to romance companions and not have those romances gender-locked, moments of whimsy like the kid in the fridge amuse me etc. Most problems I had with the game were already addressed by modders by the time I picked it up (thank the mod fairy for the Full Dialogue Interface).

Virtually every time I've seen someone be really critical of FO4 it was an older fan who felt the game was a departure from earlier instalments and old school RPGs and that was the main discontent behind all their smaller beefs. Naturally such fans had an established presence on reddit and forums dedicated to the franchise and often created echo chambers in which they kept agreeing with each other and started believing the game was universally reviled. It's not worth it to argue with them because there's such a fundamental difference in taste and priorities that it's pointless. If I thought Bethesda might listen to them I might state what I liked about the game more often, but I'm pretty sure voiced PCs and so on are here to stay, so why bother.

It's not that I don't care about Fallout canon before 4 (a frequent accusation), I'm just not emotionally invested in details like Jet being invented after the war. Fallout canon is something that is fun to read about and consider, something to expand my understanding and enjoyment of the world, not something to nitpick over to death.

So yeah, I don't think you can state Fallout 4 isn't popular. It's not that beloved among the old guard Fallout fans who are entrenched online, but even they've mellowed out somewhat from the post-launch hate frenzy.

If you first look at Fo3 and Fo:nv from this picture, it shows that Bethesda was used to linear story line from developing many Tes games. So when they obtained the copyright for Fallout, they used the oblivion engine with the look and feel of Fallout bolted on. The same goes for Fo:Nv.



Fo4 is similar to fo3 when it tired to be more like fo:nv. It has mutable endings, many new places, and much better gun play. But with only 4 endings you can pick from, and basically using the same outro for each ending, and weak rpg characteristics, makes it fail at being an rpg, but still a playable game. It's more on who's devolving the game that affects how good is is, that's why when Obsidian made Fo:Nv, it became the best game in the fallout series. Because they but effort and gave the game proper RPG characteristics that made it feel much more fun to play, even today despite how crappy the graphics look by today's standards.

It's a bad Fallout game, simple as that.

Ima just give my opinion on the key words ''why is not fo4 more popular'' cause im too drunk to read well thought out opinions, but in my books, fallout 4 is just... shit, i just cant think of any other word to describe it, when i would leave fo3 vault, id be like ''oh wow a whole wastland for me to discover!'' or in fonv ''oh wow where do i begin, who should i get good rep from first?'' fo4... soon as i leave the vault, full modded looking amazing and making gameplay 10x better im like hmmm... do i take on this raider base? or do i take on this ghoul hang out (again), for the 100th time, something bout the others didnt make it boring, but fo4 once you finish it once, you think to your self im not really missing much to begin with if i start a new game, its just... ugh no... its such a boring game, i mean only reason im modding it is due to knowing the material files, if i had my way and wasnt so lazy to learn i would mod fo3-nv, alot of people enjoy fo4, and i dont blame em it isnt a bad game, but it just isnt... the 'feel' of fo3-nv in my books, i try my best to enjoy it, but once after getting preston garvey to sanc i get mega bored, and lost interest, just my humble opinion 0.0

Fallout 4 manifests on shooter elements instead of RPG elements. Dialogue isn't interesting, and the only fun to be offered is by way of shooting your way through Raiders 24/7. It's fucking boring.

@lemon

And walking through a desert with nothing in sight but dust is fun?

Corvo wrote:

@lemon

And walking through a desert with nothing in sight but dust is fun?

By nothing you mean an actual interesting story to immerse yourself in? With numerous people to talk to, and an entire story to be unraveled?

Compared to some 60+ dollar shooter with shit graphics and horrible optimization and a piss poor story made by a 13 year old tumblr user, with no RPG elements mind you other then some horrible ""survival"" mode that just increases the shots to kill and makes everything just straight up infuriating that you think is good?

It's not my, or anyone else's who likes fallout new vegas over shootout 4, fault that you have a short attention span and you can't play a game without shooting something every five minutes.

This conversation is getting a little silly. Here's a picture of a sloth to make everyone smile

Spoiler:

Awee shietttttt shots fired!

To me it partially boils down to it feeling like I am doing the same thing over and over and over. Shoot and loot and boring side quests.

Also, while it's still really fun, it brings back disappointment because of the hype that let me down. Which is my own fault, but still.

Why did somebody downvote the sloth? How could they?

Oh boy I knew this debate could get a little heated but...let's all play nice everyone. I started this topic to find out the honest ways FO4 let you down or possibly pulled you in. I now see that so many people expected a long well thought out story that stayed true to lore. And when that didn't happen for some people that was it game over.

It's borderlands fallout edition, fun as a run and gun game. Terrible as a rpg.

Corvo wrote:

Why did somebody downvote the sloth? How could they?

Indeed. It suggests to me that Sauron is not destroyed, but merely sleeping.

This topic can get a little toxic. I'll try to keep it civil, and I apologize for being too aggressive. But I had to make a point ya?

Well... I'll avoid being rude, or petty about this. I think in terms of gameplay & mechanics, FO4 is the best game yet. The environment, in my opinion was exciting and engaging, I could take the character's faces seriously without mods. I loved the sense of desolation that the glowing sea provided as well as exploring the commonwealth.

With that said, I do believe the storytelling was cliched and less engaging than FNV. The thing I missed most was the awesome, detailed sidequests. Who still remembers Come Fly with Me, Three Card Bounty and Beyond the Beef? What about Superhuman Gambit and Tenpennhy Tower? Power of the Atom? Those are just a few examples of the level of effort that was put in to the quests of FO3 in New Vegas. I'm sure all of you can name dozens more.

What can you say followed that legacy? Maybe Cabot House and The Chinese Sub? Those are truly the only two I can think of... honorable mention to Saugus Ironworks. It was fun, but ultimately a little uninspired.

I don't hate Fallout 4. I liked the mass-effect style dialogue (I know that's a bit hot button. Please don't hurt me lol), I ultimately liked the power armor retcon, it was finally as powerful as it was supposed to be lore-wise. I loved the scope and ambition of the Art Design. I was enthusiastic to see the Prydwen for the first time. I thought Kellogg was a pretty awesome antagonist. But I think the problem, at least the one I have with FO4, is that they weren't really willing to take risks with the narrative, they were so concerned with making a revenue monster, a true AAA title, that they left behind a little bit of what made games like Oblivion, FO3, FNV and Skyrim great.

Hopefully I was able to put some of everybody's sentiments into words without coming across as condescending or childish.