So the legion have a stigma against fire-arms and put more trust into melee and unarmed weaponry, but i'm not asking about an ingame fight based on stats, no i'm asking from a lore perspective how powerful would the legion actually be, now they have distinct advantages, for example: slaves (not nice but useful) they craft their weaponry, the armor they use seems to be in an abundance, and they have to have mastered water travel to an extent if you need to get a boat to the fort first time you travel there, more advantages not in combat but in survival, does anyone else have anything to add to this? looking for all sorts of opinions and views, personally i think the legion would collapse without caesar, but with him they could be a capable faction if they didn't spend their entirety of their resources and soldiers on the dam, and just expanded and cultivated instead

The Legion pretends to uphold the type of life that the Romans,Spartans, and Athenians used when Phalynx and Hoplon combat was way of combat. In reality though they are a large group of savages held in check by one man who manages to hold them all together. They are raiders and marauders who only care about themselves whan the ablove mentioned were defenders of state.

Caeser uses these old beliefs and images of the past to controll the mongrels into doing what they are told. How much about roman history do you think he actually knows? Can he actually even read? Or did he just see pictures of romans in armor in a book he stole when he was a kid and thought it was cool.

I do think without Caeser , the legion would crumble do to infighting and competition between officers who beleive they should be the leader. So Caeser was pretty smart in being able to brainwash and control so many people. Once he is gone though , they Legion will separate into different cliques and eventually go their seperate ways if they don`t kill each other first.

As a whole on their strength? I feel they would be a terror to civillain settlements and small outposts in the wild. I do not beleive they would be any major threat to any trained military force they outnumbered 3 to 1 in a full scale battle. Have to remember also, the Legions main strength is their reputation about what they do to people. That will only take someone so far in combat.

Mmmh, well, in terms of lore, I think the Legion is pretty damn powerful. At least as much as powerful as the NCR.

@Banewrath Maybe without Caesar it would be different, maybe it wouldn't, I mean there would still be Lanius to lead the Legion. But I disagree with you when you say the Legion would not be any major threat to any trained military force. I think the contrary, they would pose a major threat to any trained military force, and for the main reason that I believe that the legion is a trained military force.
They almost won against the NCR at the First battle at Hoover Damn. And even after the defeat, they still managed to rebuild their forces and launch another campaign against the NCR, and established a foothold in their territory. Also, if the Legion wasn't a real threat, the NCR wouldn't spent so much effort and time and resources to defeat them.
Moreover, the Legion rules over a vast territory, which I believe is considered safer for caravans and such than the part of the Mojave controlled by the NCR. And, I'm not an expert in strategy, but I believe that in order to control and occupy a territory without any major difficulties you need to have a well trained military force, and a big one that is, to cover the land, plus more troops to be able to laucnh campagin against enemy factions. You can't rule efficiently over a territory if your troops are just badly trained militia without any good chain of command.  
So, yea I think the Legion is really powerful, and a force to be reckon with (at least in the lore, the game is a different story lol)

PS: nice avatar, Venom rules!

@praising I agree you made some brilliant points about the lore perspective, and yeah the game is a different story besides the Praetorians with their ballistic fists when you're in a confined space (like Caesars tent) the legion are kinda pushover ingame

praising wrote:

Mmmh, well, in terms of lore, I think the Legion is pretty damn powerful. At least as much as powerful as the NCR.

@Banewrath Maybe without Caesar it would be different, maybe it wouldn't, I mean there would still be Lanius to lead the Legion. But I disagree with you when you say the Legion would not be any major threat to any trained military force. I think the contrary, they would pose a major threat to any trained military force, and for the main reason that I believe that the legion is a trained military force.
They almost won against the NCR at the First battle at Hoover Damn. And even after the defeat, they still managed to rebuild their forces and launch another campaign against the NCR, and established a foothold in their territory. Also, if the Legion wasn't a real threat, the NCR wouldn't spent so much effort and time and resources to defeat them.
Moreover, the Legion rules over a vast territory, which I believe is considered safer for caravans and such than the part of the Mojave controlled by the NCR. And, I'm not an expert in strategy, but I believe that in order to control and occupy a territory without any major difficulties you need to have a well trained military force, and a big one that is, to cover the land, plus more troops to be able to laucnh campagin against enemy factions. You can't rule efficiently over a territory if your troops are just badly trained militia without any good chain of command.  
So, yea I think the Legion is really powerful, and a force to be reckon with (at least in the lore, the game is a different story lol)

PS: nice avatar, Venom rules!

The reason Legion territory is safe for caravans is because they either killed or assimilated everyone esle. So there is nobody left to harrass the caravans. Beside they need supplies so caravans would be granted passage regardless.

So that big expanse territory they have is pretty much empty and it`s relatively easy to control something when opposition is non existant. The NCR has to actually govern the territory they have. Defend from the ganger and feinds. Though it would have been better to just wipe them all out much like the legion does but for some reason they do not go that way. I would have.

There is also no second place in battle. Just because they almost won the first battle of the dam doesn`t mean they were superior. Now I think the NCR has more of an understanding of how to battle them so the next battles outcome would be greatly different in the NCR`s favor. Of course the Legion may have learned some tricks too but I feel the NCR has the abilty to shut them down. Plus with the tech the NCR possess and experience from battling the BOS, I feel they are more prepared to repel anything the legion can throw at them. Unless the Legion had their cannons working and just attacked the dam with artillery.

You do pose an interesting opinion though. I feel there are many other factors in play that can and would put the legion at a disadvantage.

The legion are pretty powerful tactically and morality wise. Equipment wise not so much. As they do hold the means to take on the NCR in combat. Their armor is made up of Football pads which ain't gonna protect them for anything against 5.56mm bullets.

the legion seems to have a couple of things on their side, numbers, they seem to be a lot of them, traveling in small numbers so they can sneak into other parts of the world, and destroy whole towns. The ncr is spread out so far they can barely hold what areas they control, so if their are more legion in arizona, then i'd assume they stick together cause of mutual ideals. You have raider gangs all over the entire country, given that they do tend to fight with other raider gangs they all same to have the same basic ideals of destruction, murder, and taking whatever they want. Who's to say a large group of these like minded indivduals could't come together to work as a whole.

I think the major things the Legion has going for them are...

1. They're gigantic. Caesar's Legion is absolutely gi-freaking-normous, the NCR in itself is a huge military force. But where the NCR has farmers, governors, ranchers, citizens and miners... The Legion has only soldiers. Every single able-bodied male in the Legion is trained as a slave soldier giving them an incredibly large (If under-equipped) military force. Let's not forget that while abhorrent, the Legion also utilizes child soldiers as well, which are a particular problem for the NCR.

2. They're Fanatics with no morals. The Legion is made up of Tribals primarily, who have an... Impressionable state of mind. Caesar's gone so far as to convince those under him that he is the literal reincarnation of the Roman God of War, Mars. This alone gives the Legion a significant advantage in terms of Motivation, while an NCR soldier works for a paycheck, Legionaries are zealots, they fear the repercussions of failing Caesar so much that they're far less likely to cut and run in the heat of battle. In terms of a lack of morality, the Legion is incredibly powerful, they'll stop at nothing to conquer. Torture, Rape, Pillage, Enslave... These are common-place in the legion, in that regard they're more akin to raiders than a proper society like the NCR, who are somewhat bound by morality and the Idea of 'doing what's right'. This limits the NCR rather tightly on how far they can go, while Caesar's Legion has no such limits.

3. Despite common misconception, the Legion does use guns and their armor isn't simply 'Football pads'. Many are quick to put the Legion on the Backfoot simply because of their tech disadvantage. While it's true they don't have the supreme Ranger Combat armor of the Desert Rangers or Salvaged Power-Armor, they're far from stick-wielding thugs in football pads.
I'll quote the Wiki page here...

Quote!:

4. Deceit. Going along with their lack of morals, the Legion has a vast network of Frumentarii that (During the time of New Vegas) have succeeded in vastly stacking the deck for the second battle of the Hoover Dam in Caesar's favor. They're hand-picked by Caesar himself for the prime purpose of spreading terror and dissent among the Legion's enemies. While the NCR has propaganda... It's not quite as powerful as the message left in the wake of Frumentarrii like the Sacking of Nipton.

IIHawkerII wrote:

I think the major things the Legion has going for them are...

1. They're gigantic. Caesar's Legion is absolutely gi-freaking-normous, the NCR in itself is a huge military force. But where the NCR has farmers, governors, ranchers, citizens and miners... The Legion has only soldiers. Every single able-bodied male in the Legion is trained as a slave soldier giving them an incredibly large (If under-equipped) military force. Let's not forget that while abhorrent, the Legion also utilizes child soldiers as well, which are a particular problem for the NCR.

2. They're Fanatics with no morals. The Legion is made up of Tribals primarily, who have an... Impressionable state of mind. Caesar's gone so far as to convince those under him that he is the literal reincarnation of the Roman God of War, Mars. This alone gives the Legion a significant advantage in terms of Motivation, while an NCR soldier works for a paycheck, Legionaries are zealots, they fear the repercussions of failing Caesar so much that they're far less likely to cut and run in the heat of battle. In terms of a lack of morality, the Legion is incredibly powerful, they'll stop at nothing to conquer. Torture, Rape, Pillage, Enslave... These are common-place in the legion, in that regard they're more akin to raiders than a proper society like the NCR, who are somewhat bound by morality and the Idea of 'doing what's right'. This limits the NCR rather tightly on how far they can go, while Caesar's Legion has no such limits.

3. Despite common misconception, the Legion does use guns and their armor isn't simply 'Football pads'. Many are quick to put the Legion on the Backfoot simply because of their tech disadvantage. While it's true they don't have the supreme Ranger Combat armor of the Desert Rangers or Salvaged Power-Armor, they're far from stick-wielding thugs in football pads.
I'll quote the Wiki page here...

Quote!:

4. Deceit. Going along with their lack of morals, the Legion has a vast network of Frumentarii that (During the time of New Vegas) have succeeded in vastly stacking the deck for the second battle of the Hoover Dam in Caesar's favor. They're hand-picked by Caesar himself for the prime purpose of spreading terror and dissent among the Legion's enemies. While the NCR has propaganda... It's not quite as powerful as the message left in the wake of Frumentarrii like the Sacking of Nipton.

I think you make some strong points. However there is way more involved then numbers and determination. Supplies for instance. How is Caeser feeding this massive force? Stealing a few brahmin from farmers? You also have to consider that even if they do use firearms , that ammuntion during that time is scarce and the NCR has a Gunrunner manufacturing plant right outside the strip that supplies them. I know in the game the mobs fire from endless mags but lets be real here since we are discussing an at least realistic fictional comparison in power.

Now the Legion has numbers, that is true. Who exactly besides the NCR has the Legion overcome that could have put a fight like the NCR? In the beginning of the game it shows how the legion conquered other tribes but that is all they were. Small bands of people I`ll equipped for any real method of warfare. So one of their main strenghts is their reputation of what they do to conquered people. That is why they do a lottery to let people spread terror by word of mouth. People believe in the boogyman and start thinking the legion is an unstoppable force that consumes all in it`s path. They spread nightmares and that alone is thier primary strength. I think the main reason the legion was successful in it`s growing campaign over the years is because they never fought any other organized opponent. Up until they first battle for the dam where they had superior numbers but still were pushed back and defeated.

In general battle. I think the legion is just a zerg. They will accept whatever losses then encounter to win the objective. They do not care about their troops. So they will push to the last man since they are fanatical. That could be considered a strength or their biggest weakness. As for tactics? what could a primarilly melee oriented force do against mutiple firing lines? Die maybe?

Don`t get me wrong the legion is a force to be reckoned with. I do not think they deserve the credit they are being given though since they are just a large group of organized raiders. Take Caeser away and they would died from infighting long ago.

wow you guys put a lot of thought in to this in to this i had fun reading this

@Banewrath Good points!

1. Unfortunately, we weren't able to explore Arizona as was intended from the game due to deadlines. But I wager the Legion has it's own farms, ammunition mills and weapon manufacturers set up in the Arizona state. Then again, that's all speculation but it's something of a useless point to put forward as it's already shown that they do have these things.

Part of an Avellone quote explaining what they had in mind for the cut Legion landscape east of the Colorado.:

2. The Legion fought the Desert Rangers successfully for years until the NCR swooped into Nevada to sign the Ranger Unification Treaty with them and essentially assimilate them into the NCR. They've also fought the Daughters of Hecate, perhaps the largest and most feared tribe in the American Southwest.

3. I think you're right about the Zerg Tactic, they are a fan of throwing their muscle at what opposes them. But they do have tactics for dealing with long-range combatants, mostly moving cover in the form of slaves columns or hard flanks. More often then not, they simply wouldn't charge a firing line, looking for alternate paths or ways to cripple the enemy from within. (As shown with the intake valves and sabotage of the NCR in New Vegas.) Remember, They also have guns!

4. I think you're right about Caesar, while I could see the Legion continuing to stand without Caesar, it would be entirely as a group of raiders under Lanius. Caesar gives the Legion purpose beyond simply killing and destroying. Without him, they're raiders to the bone.

@IIHawkerII You have some really good points and I agree with all of them. They are impressive in training their troops and deceit is their most impressive weapon. The one thing they lack is foresight. Taking on a force as strong( although corrupt) as the NCR while shunning many modern medicines is a very bad idea. I'm not saying that the NCR is the best faction, just the most likely to win the battle for Hoover Dam. I found an interesting video on Youtube by ShoddyCast and I think some of you guys would be interested.

Here

Code:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgw3NgYTR6U&index=27&list=PL7pGJQV-jlzAYDaFfr5P8pRlxrHrvHAh7

Interesting Question...

What if Vulpes Inculta were to assume leadership of the Legion instead of Lanius when Caesar dies?

@IIHawkerII

I think he could forge alliance between Powder Gangers, Fiends and two of three New Vegas Families before battle for Hoover Dam by destruction of NCR infrastructure.

One thing that should never be underestimated is the power of guerrilla warfare. The North Vietnamese wiped the floor with one of the most powerful militaries in the world, as did the Mujahedeen with the USSR in Afghanistan. It's badly implemented in the Gamebryo engine of course, but from what we're told of the Legion in-game is that they are primarily guerrilla tacticians. They fight dirty, using children as bombs, irradiating an entire town, making it completely uninhabitable (probably for years to come), plus they plan a revolt from within Vegas itself to take place while the NCR are fighting at Hoover Dam.

Doesn't matter how good you are with a gun, if you're caught off-guard, even a dumb-ass with a knife can take you out. The Viet Cong technically lost the Tet Offensive in 1968, losing huge numbers of troops and conquered territory immediately after their initial strike, but you wouldn't know that from the way the Tet Offensive is remembered. The Offensive was devastating for South Vietnamese and American morale, making the North Vietnamese appear far more powerful than they actually were and making it seem like nowhere was safe anymore, that no matter how many the Allied forces killed, the Viet Cong would just keep on coming. "You can kill ten of our men for every one we kill of yours. But even at those odds, you will lose and we will win." - Ho Chi Minh

The Legion were defeated first time round, but here they are again, stronger than before, with a brutal commander, a spy planted in NCR military headquarters, an alliance with a powerful group within Vegas, an alliance with the raider factions of the Mojave and two captured bases west of the Colorado River (Nelson and Cottonwood). Not exactly great for NCR morale, and that's what the Legion are counting on.

With regards to what would happen after Caesar died; fragmentation is most likely, unless the Legion wins the war, in which case Lanius would probably consolidate his power even moreso and continue the campaign westwards. Any opposition to Lanius's leadership would be silenced while he's riding high upon victory after victory. The Legion will collapse eventually, but only once its military momentum is halted.  But if Lanius is defeated at Hoover Dam, his record of victories is lost, meaning he would lose face and other leaders within the Legion would attempt a coup d'etat, with Vulpes being the most likely candidate as a devotee of Caesar's original vision of establishing a Pax Romana. As opposed to Lanius's vision of constant warfare. If you want an idea of what would happen after Caesar's death, just check what happened to Alexander the Great's empire after he died.

Sorry, tl;dr. Legion fight dirty, Legion will fragment without Caesar. Please let there be a game where we can see the aftermath of Hoover Dam from Legion territory perspective.

The Legion is powerful, but it's 99% filled with savages. Take away Caesar from them, and they would crumble not having anyone wise enough to lead them.

Lore wise, the Legion is powerful, but they would not last. They rely on conquering tribes and stealing resources. Sure they trade with caravans a bit, but they can really only offer things that they've stolen or found and those are finite resources. It's not something you could sustain an entire army on. We know they aren't big on farmers because in Honest Hearts we find out that they taught the White Legs their ways of conquering tribes to get the resources they need rather than becoming self-sufficient.

Their real strength comes from their sheer numbers and their ferocity(which as stated above, could be their greatest weakness). They built themselves a reputation of fighting to the last man and should anyone retreat/fail, they are severely punished(Joshua). So with enemies that never retreat, all you would have to do is hold them off. You wouldn't really need to coordinate attacks against them. Just wait them out and they'll run out of numbers.

Their gear is also a problem. They wear mostly football pads and bits of scrap metal. They are mostly armed with spears, machetes, and cheap weaponry that is in poor condition. The higher ranking members will wield marksman carbines, super sledges, chainsaws, and powerfists, but as effective as those troopers are, there isn't a whole lot of them. They don't arm their troops very well and rely on them to be used as cannon fodder. Ultimately, this would eventually be their undoing. Caesar needs the Legion to believe it's unstoppable, but if the numbers diminish enough due to poor equipment, then Caesar will have to give them better gear, but what that will do is show the Legion that they aren't as good as they were lead to believe. They believe that they are good enough with the lowest of tech, but if they're told to use better gear because they are not doing well, then it shows that they aren't as tough as they thought. That would show weakness and Caesar tried to root out any forms of weakness. Ultimately, they're going against well equipped and well trained soldiers who generally have the support of the Mojave. True, their combat tactics are impressive, but in the long run it wouldn't be enough.

Arrogance is also another weakness on their part. Caesar is extremely arrogant and as a result, so is the Legion. They hype themselves up and then give in to things they would deem "lower" than them. They claim to not need to use technology, but then use guns, tried to acquire a source of energy weapons, have a stockpile of stealthboys, rely on tele-communications, and Caesar himself even needed to find a doctor with high tech lab equipment. Eventually, that would hurt their image in the eyes of both Legion and their enemies. They'd all realize that despite their claims of superiority and lack of need to use technology, that they would still rely on it. Caesar tries so hard to instill that image onto his Legion, but if anything were to leak out, it would severely hurt the Legion. He tried to kill Joshua as an example, but then tried to cover it up when he survived as it would show weakness. He hides the fact that he's dying from cancer in order to keep the image alive. He even lies about his own history. Very few(if any) even know his true origins. He tells them he's the son of a god when really he's just a former Follower of the Apocalypse who stumbled upon a history book. If that got out and the Legion found out he was a fraud and their entire legion was built on lies, that wouldn't end well. Lanius would kill him for being weak(presumably by crucifixion) and then take control, but that wouldn't end well either.

Their biggest weakness would have to be Caesar himself. The man is a natural leader, but if he goes the Legion goes with him. Many people state this. The Legion is held tightly together, but that's only because Caesar is there to do so. He's charismatic and a figurehead. Without their "god", they lose their true motivation. It's suspected they would last a few years after his passing, but they would inevitably fall. The only people who could possibly have replaced Caesar would be Joshua or Lanius. The former was "killed" and erased from Legion history and Lanius is not a good leader. He's best described as a savage animal. He can lead well in combat(arguably, not as well as Joshua, but more ferocious), but he could not lead the whole Legion. He's built for war, not governing. If chosen to replace Caesar in the game, he makes the Legion far more brutal, but ultimately that would be their downfall in the long run. They would become so brutal and merciless that they would "inspire" their enemies to fight to the last man as well. At least with Caesar, they granted the tougher enemies a swift and honorable death, but with Lanius, they would crucify them. If they did that to everyone, there would be no reason for anyone fighting to even think about surrender or retreat. No matter what they would die so why not go out trying to take them out? That's the exact same mindset the Legion troopers are instilled with. With Lanius, that "strength" is now rather useless as every enemy would adopt that stance. Caesar's reign would at least cause people to surrender, defect, or retreat. Lanius would only force them to fight even harder.


Edit: As for people mentioning Vulpes taking over, that would be unlikely. Lanius and him have a form of rivalry. They would inevitably fight over it and Lanius would kill or crucify him. That being said, if he did manage to become the next leader, he would attempt to do things as Caesar would have, but much less efficiently as he's not as good as a leader as Ceaser(nobody could be since Caesar was the face and father of the Legion). He would not strike a deal with the Powder Gangers or Fiends and Caeser himself dictated that they were scum to be killed(hence why Nipton was razed for harboring them). Vulpes would probably attempt to sway the favor of the Omertas, but not the other families. Benny doesn't trust Legion and the White Gloves wouldn't either as they seem to not care about the conflict. House definitely wouldn't side with them as he has his own vision and merely leaves them be as a distraction for the NCR. Ultimately, if Vulpes managed to become the new leader, it still wouldn't last. He's simply not Caesar. Nobody could replace him.

starting to feel out of my depth lol, everyone is making extremely valid posts, i like that no one is focusing on the actual ingame legion and looking at it from a lore perspective, but here's a question without the NCR do you think the legion would last? or would they crumble with out something to latch onto? as Caesar seems so focused on hoover dam i almost expect the legion to fall apart when they get it, does Caesar have a game plan for what he'd use hoover dam for? anyone?

So, I think we all agree that Caesar is the key to the Legion's strenght, because without him it will most likely crumble apart or just fragment into small tribes on the best of cases.

But one thing we can't do is underestimate the Legion's actual and potential strenght, and I'll try to prove it comparing to Atila's Huns (Which I think are the real inspiration behind FNV's Legion).

Some points to say about the Legion:

-The Legion is arrogant
-They are fully dependant on a strong leader which can only be Caesar
-They subsist from pillage and slavery
-They are underequipped
-Ethics are destroyed on the legion though their morale is strong.

All of this could have been (and probably was) said about the Hun's Horde, and we all know how that ended. Savages who actually defeated an empire, driven by ONE man who claimed to be an incarnation of Mars(Ares).

When you start to compare the NCR with the actual Roman Empire you start to see how alike these two factions are to their historical counterparts.

The Legion is both smart and powerful, if they put their sights on something they'll get it. They don't care about playing dirty or having losses and this is the key factor to understand their real strenght.
Supply lines, politics, citizenship, discontent, law enforcement, alliances... all of this are problems that the NCR faces but the Legion does not. They are strong because they are a Horde, not a nation. Obviously when the horde disolves, they'll dissapear but meanwhile, their momentum drives them into steamrolling everything on their path of conquest.

That's why I think they are actually the strongest faction on the Mojave. They are a short term problem but an extremelly dangerous one.

Thinking that the NCR has the strenght and resources to defeat the Legion in open battle, just because their soldiers have "better guns" is a really narrowed point of view IMO.

-The legion has better armor than NCR soldiers
-They have the numbers to overcome firing lines by just charging, it is not hard to imagine how a flanking tactic would end for the NCR troopers.
-The NCR is undersupplied for the most part.
-Legion's morale is way stronger, as said before, simillar to the vietnam conflict, NCR's morale is detrimented.
-The Legion actually seeds discord within the enemy lines with spies and the like.
-The only reason why the Legion can be defeated in-game is because of the courier 6 recruiting other groups to aid the NCR (boomers, BoS, etc.)

Said that, remember the battle between the BoS and the NCR?

-Who were more technologically advanced?
-Who were better preppared on a really well defended post?
-Who were better equipped and knew the terrain better?
-Who actually won?

So yeah, the Legion is strong, as strong as a conquering horde gets.

All this seems to be pro-legion propaganda but I actually hate them, go NCR ;-;/ don't judge me I just see them as a real threat haha

i like the comparison to the Hun very true, i always believed the legion would conquer and then die out slowly when there was nothing left to ransack, i think they could take hoover dam but not keep a hold of it at all