I know this has probably already been argued, but in Honest Hearts, Joshua mentions that he expected a different courier (Ulysses) to come after him, and from what we gain from the in-game lore, both are fairly strong leaders and can seemingly survive experiences that would likely kill any other normal person (much like the courier surviving a bullet to the brain), so to this I ask:
1)Firstly, which character spoke more to you and how do you think their philosophies and morals/actions stood out to you.
2)Secondly, who would win in a 1v1 between them if their paths ever did cross, and do you think the outcome would be different depending on the form of combat they engaged in (melee, guns, etc.)?

Personally, I think Joshua Grahams character development over the DLC (depending widely on the choices you made) had the most impact on me, I personally chose to fight with Joshua but taught him to show mercy in the final moments of the DLC which is said in the closing cinematic that learning mercy allowed Joshua to give not only others mercy, but give himself mercy for the things he has done.
Secondly, Given that Ulysses was a frumentari and was most likely better trained with melee weapons and also that Joshua Graham was a New Canaanite and was trained with the ins and outs of firearms, I believe that Ulysses would win in Melee and Joshua would win with firearms.

I look forward to seeing everyone else's thoughts on this!

1. Joshua was certainly more impactful on me.

His rise as a legate, fall and subsequent redemption were truly a great character arch worthy of the Badlands Legate.

2. No idea. Personally, I think it would go to Ulysses. He's a trained Frumentarii while Joshua is a 50sh year old burn victim. Not saying Joshua couldn't win but he's not really the great warrior he's touted to be. Yes, he's a badass mofo who's survived death many times but ultimately he's a skilled tactician and war chief. Ulysses is a warrior.

The question is... after the battle would Joshua truly be dead?

Tribal Raven wrote:

1. Joshua was certainly more impactful on me.

His rise as a legate, fall and subsequent redemption were truly a great character arch worthy of the Badlands Legate.

2. No idea. Personally, I think it would go to Ulysses. He's a trained Frumentarii while Joshua is a 50sh year old burn victim. Not saying Joshua couldn't win but he's not really the great warrior he's touted to be. Yes, he's a badass mofo who's survived death many times but ultimately he's a skilled tactician and war chief. Ulysses is a warrior.

The question is... after the battle would Joshua truly be dead?

You make some very good points worth considering, thank you!
Also i'm pretty sure if Ulysses is able to defeat Graham, he wouldn't make the mistake of everyone else who has tried to off The Burned Man before him haha

I like to think Joshua because I love his story, but it would probably be Ulysses.

In game terms, it would definitely be Ulysses because his stats are crazy high compared to Joshua. In canon terms it depends. I wouldn't discount Graham because the man is one of the toughest people in the Fallout universe. Hell, before surviving being burned alive and thrown into the grand canyon, Hanlon says dozens of NCR rangers and snipers had tried to take Graham out, but he always came back. For a long time he was the back bone of Caesar's army, and an influential figure in his conquest of Arizona. That was all in his prime though, which is long past, whereas Ulysses appears to be slap bang in the middle of his.

Hard to say. Probably Ulysses in a straight up fight, but like I said, Graham isn't an easy guy to kill.

IRORIEH wrote:

I like to think Joshua because I love his story, but it would probably be Ulysses.

In game terms, it would definitely be Ulysses because his stats are crazy high compared to Joshua. In canon terms it depends. I wouldn't discount Graham because the man is one of the toughest people in the Fallout universe. Hell, before surviving being burned alive and thrown into the grand canyon, Hanlon says dozens of NCR rangers and snipers had tried to take Graham out, but he always came back. For a long time he was the back bone of Caesar's army, and an influential figure in his conquest of Arizona. That was all in his prime though, which is long past, whereas Ulysses appears to be slap bang in the middle of his.

Hard to say. Probably Ulysses in a straight up fight, but like I said, Graham isn't an easy guy to kill.

Very good points about their ages and in-game stats! I never considered their ages, but now that I think about it, it would probably give Ulysses the upper-hand. And now that I think back about how hard that final fight with Ulysses was, Theres no doubt that Ulysses would win in-game haha. Thanks!

Graham definitely has the skills and experience, but there's a drive behind Ulysses that just seems far more intimidating.

Graham is reformed, he's trying to make right the mistakes he had before. He has a violent streak to be sure, a thirst for vengeance you can feed into, and he's tough as coffin nails, but overall he hears the call of a higher purpose and wants good to come of his actions. Not to mention, while he is capable, he is still physically destroyed, and likely nowhere near the able-bodied man he was before.

Ulysses is a man of will, young and full of hatred. Of all the characters in the game, he's the closest one to you. There's a kinship between the two couriers that square off. You two are like forces of nature so world shaking that everyone talks about the lead-up to your confrontation. He's cunning, experienced, and doesn't suffer any major, physical adversities. He has a keen knowledge of both old world and a modern technology, far in excess to a man like Graham. He also capitalizes entirely on his home court advantage, engaging in areas he's very familiar with, rather than charging into situations, guns blazing like Joshua does.

With all of this in mind, I really have to tip the advantage to Ulysses, as far as a battle between the two might go. It would be very interesting to see an event like this play out, with the two pitting their knowledge and skills against each other.

Depends on the battle we are talking about. Like is the battle something spontaneous? Is there time for both men to prepare? Is it a battle of wits or Brawn?
Before we get into that we should look at both men.

Graham is a man of strong faith in his beliefs, he will not be swayed in his decisions unless he is informed and convinced that they contradict these beliefs. Despite his kind and forgiving outward appearance and actions, he holds a deep hatred for all things legion and the man he once was. He has a huge following of tribal's who will lay down their lives for him and believe in his guidance. This also means that he is a charismatic man as well, at least to some degree considering that his speech check is so high and his followers are pretty damn loyal to him, also take into account he was the Legate and right hand man of Ceasar. Graham has fought in many battles, and recruited many men to his causes in his time. Besides his training, his resources, and his overall experience in battle, he also has proven to be a very durable opponent as well. Having survived a fall from the top of the grand canyon, while on fire, and being able to walk away from that. He lives with the pain of his wounds both physically and mentally every day of his life, yet still manages to follow his religious beliefs and spread the good word. The man is an unstoppable force or it would appear so. His major faults in this fight is his age, and hot headed approach to anything legion related. Being around the same age as Ceasar Graham is pushing 55, which means he is facing a disadvantage in this fight.

Now we have Ulysses a very obsessive former frumentarius whose extremely skilled in both technology and tribal remedies. Ulysses nature is one of curiosity and revenge. Much like Graham, Ulysses holds anger towards the one who wronged him, but also realizes that the two are closely linked with one another. Ulysses is very cunning and intelligent, but also very single minded in his goals. He is very hard to try and reason with, but once he makes a decision he will stick to it unless convinced otherwise. Being a former Frumentarius he is used to infiltration and blending in with his surroundings, making him very good at manipulation and stealth. Despite his intelligence he seems a little demented, now this could be due to the fact he has lost so many tribes in his life (One to the legion and One to the courier), but it still means that Ulysses mental state has to be brought into question. He also holds a very high code of honor, having been sent to kill Graham before hand but not following through. He even states that "Graham earned his life", when refering to the Burned man and why he didnt kill him. Ulysses shows great skill in combat as well, being able to hold off a large group of marked men (who are trained soldiers) along with the courier.

Now if the battle is spontaneous, Ulysses would probably be the victor due to his age, abilities and the fact that Graham didnt have time to prepare for the fight.
If the both men have time to prepare, I'd say it would go Graham as he would use all his resources against Ulysses including his followers.
If its a battle of Wits it comes to a standstill, as either men can decide to commit surprise attacks or manipulate those around them.
I dont think either would try to kill the other though since it just seems like they have a mutual respect for each other. Graham was willing to wait and meet who he thought was Ulysses(but in fact was the courier) in a civil conversation, and Ulysses has stated that he wouldnt kill Graham because he has earned his life by surviving the fall.

I personally think Joshua definitely would win. Joshua has been through more than Ulysses. Joshua's the MALPAIS LEGATE.
Ulysses is a Frumentarii. Joshua's philosophies are something I agree with. Joshua went through one of the most traumatic experiences and will always remember the pain of being burnt day in and day out. He's immune to chems, that is even worse.
I think that Joshua's survival of his Grand Canyon burn-drop isn't a miracle, but the work of the God that Joshua believes in. Joshua is an incredibly calm character. I think that Joshua would beat him no matter what. He's survived a plethora of incidents that would cost the average person their life. Joshua wouldn't lose to a trained Frumentarii. He can't expect God to kill Ulysses.

is there any doubt? the Burned man, master of the new cannanite pistol, so tough he walked off being lit on fire and taking the fast way down the Grand Canyon, against a bitchy mailman with a flagpole that talks like he has brain damage?

Joshua would win. His pain tolerance is probably way superior to Ulysses'. Ulysses never had to go through being burnt alive. In terms of how they look.. Joshua again wins here. The tactical vest with the bandages just looks way more intimidating than ulysses' duster. Also Joshua has suffered defeat so hes been humbled and hes probably not too cocky in battle

Just look at him are you really going to choose a guy wearing a breathing mask over this :

Depends, if it's an actual contest of combat prowess, Joshua could win with his eyes shut. On the other hand, Joshua is probably in his mid-fifties, so if Ulysses gets a chance to start talking, he'd monologue until Joshua died of old age.

Joshua was once in change of the legion for a reason.

when it comes to combative abilities it's kinda hard to determine who is actually stronger, but honestly Ulysses just talks to much and Joshua would've shot him before he's done monologuing. As shown in Honest hearts He's more confrontational then the average courier.

I'd have to toss my vote to Graham. A lot of people here are talking about his age being a big disadvantage to him, but I'm not so sure that would be a problem for him. Provided you're in shape, you can be tough as nails for a long ass time. My grandfather is I think 84 today and he still chainsaws trees down and splits the wood with a maul. Granted, even a fit 80 year old man probably can't do too much in a fight, but my point is that a 50 year old man isn't at that same disadvantage. I can't imagine Joshua softened up after settling down. He's quick to jump right into combat with no hesitation and he's not the type to blindly jump into danger unless he knows he can win. He's also durable as all hell having survived falling down the grand canyon while on fire and still constantly being in pain along with having survived multiple assassination attempts. The man just refuses to die. He's not just a tactician. The man is a strong and durable warrior.

Ulysses had been through a lot and is capable, but I still give the vote to Graham. Ulysses was a Frumentarii, but that wasn't really a combat position. It was an intelligence and infiltration position. They typically don't do too much fighting. He likely picked up skills in his travels, but I doubt it can compare to Graham's 30 years of combat experience

I think Graham would win hands down. Ulysses seems the type to let others do the fighting than himself. He trains the White Legs to fight for him and doesn't fight with them and he prefers to let everything in the Divide try to kill the Courier and eventually relies on having robots help him. Graham didn't need help. He'd charge right into a fight, with or without followers if he believed he could win. He was notorious for his durability and abilities.

Graham, but I by a thin margin. Ulysses is a gifted survivalist and soldier, but Graham is a refined killer. One of the big differences is that Joshua knows what he fights for, he's someone that still has something to lose, his family and "tribe". By the time we meet Ulysses, he's hellbent on getting revenge against the Courier, despite being in denial about it. He has nothing to lose. Which is normally a good excuse to say that he'd win, but against someone whose resolve is stronger, I'd say he loses.

I have a Bias for Joshua, I like both characters a lot but Joshua has conviction when he speaks. I think its not necessary just me liking his morals more but I like that he can articulate them clearly and directly.  

To answer the question who would win in a fight, based off lore id go with Joshua still. I think that Ulysses was more akin to a spy compared to Joshua leading front line soldiers. (Again I'm biased) I might spawn in both and let them at it now that you say this. You sparked my curiosity.

One other note, I think in terms of philosophy, what I like about Graham is he seems to take responsibility, for his actions and failures. Where Ulysses seems to blame the courier. I do enjoy Ulysses poetic way of speaking tho, He is a top character still.


(Graham vs Ulysses lore accurate fight)

Ulysses: Bear bull bear bull bear bull.
Graham: Recites the book of Mathew in 5 seconds or less

It's 50/50 game wise probably Joshua his 45 is something fierce lore wise probably Ulysses location wise Ulysses because of those robots he has supporting him

I think Graham would easily win over Ulysses. Graham is lot more durable and accurate, the only thing Ulysses really has is his eyebots and better melee capabilities.